UK General Discussion:The Rt. Hon Alex Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, Populist Hero

[America Needs R'hllor]

Beautiful, amazing decision by Starmer! Proving to the Jewish community that he's very serious on the issue is a gigantic step towards rebuilding trust.

This is also great because he took it seriously enough to delve deeper into the nuance than the Corbyn-apologist left is willing to- I've seen too many Jews refusing to go beyond "only blatantly calling out Jews is antisemitic" and understanding the more subtle ways of inciting against Jews.

It is a simple reality, on the record, that several US police forces (including Minnesota's) have been trained by Israeli outfits. Now, I agree it is possible to do the usual AS conspiracies out of that - but the basic facts are not in dispute.

What, that Israel has trained US police forces?

Every lie has a core of truth. The fact that Israel gives counterterrorism training to some police forces (a tiny percentage at that) because, well, it's an Israeli proficiency, doesn't come close to that person's claim. Taking this small fact and using it to put the blame of a huge systemic racism problem on the Jews isn't only very antisemitic, it's also extremely dismissive of the aforementioned problem.

You're blatantly ignoring the fact that the allegation isn't simply that Israel is training some police forces- it's using this minor fact to blame the murder of George Floyd on Israel, aka on the Jews. Try perhaps to understand our concerns more instead of dismissing them- Starmer is doing just that and the polls are showing it's paying off (besides paying off in being a decent human being).

I really hope Starmer is the next PM- if the Labour left dares to replace him because of this I'll definitely not support anyone they put forward and will hope they get punished in another election (possibly destroyed as a party).

[America Needs R'hllor]

Whoa.

Way to horeshoe Labour.

I really dislike RLB.

But she shared an interview with Maxine Peake with claims which are yet to be fully substantiated about Israeli Security services but has been alleged by Palestinian activists and got the attention of Amnesty International. That isn't anti-semitic nor even remotely a dog whistle.

Again, no dancing around. This isn't a claim and didn't get anyone's attention- this is a way to misconstruct a reality to blame a huge problem on the Jews. More simply put, it's a way to pit the black community on the Jewish community.

This is how RLB justified herself:

https://twitter.com/RLong_Bailey/status/1276112455891070978?s=20

Ya'll really gotta understand that w're not gonna accept "this article has a little antisemitic lie, but it's ok that I shared it because I like the liar and the rest of it is good". Just like the black community isn't going to accept "just a little bit racism", we're not accepting compromises on antisemitism. Starmer's move is a fantastic way to show Jews that unlike Corbyn and his thugs, he cares.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Yeah, I was wondering when Labor would start shafting Momentum to the sidelines. Wouldn’t think they’d do it over this though, but I guess they needed to show that the era of international solidarity being apart of the Labour platform is over.

International solidarity against Jews isn't tolerated, yes.

The dismissals of this being an antisemitic theory are wholly unsurprising and frankly a bit funny- they sound exactly like the refusal of many on the left to accept that Corbyn and his thugs promoted antisemitism. The exact same rhetoric. If ya'll want to continue down that path, be my guests, but reality continues to contradict the apologists.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Except the story is true, there have been cases of Israeli and American police forces training together.

Edit: and no one should have solidarity with a Settler-Colonial, segregationist state. There’s a reason why the only people supporting that mess are people invested in military R&D and neofascistic parties. This handwaiving of that fact repeatedly is annoying already. You look like an English South African apologist who doesn’t ever have enough tact to actually reform the state from its current position, even just to maintain it long-term.

Anyway, I have no doubt that with media and institutional support, Starmer will sideline momentum easily. No one in power wants Labour to return to being a genuine working class party again.

Aside from stale and chewed up marxist talking points (which are again made to legitimize antisemitism), this post is blatantly false for two reasons:
1. Many politicians from the left support Israel and its right to exist and defend itself without supporting our atrocious government. What you're saying is that Jews such as Jerry Nadler who are passionate about it support Israel because they're part of the military industrial complex, and not because Israel is the only refuge for our people from antisemitism
2. The story is untrue where it matters, which I will explain (for the third time because leftists love to legitimize bigotry on their side) in the next part of the post:

Indeed it is. The only points to quibble about are that Peake made specific reference to the neck kneeling maneuver, which is not specifically indicated as being taught, and that she attributed them to Israeli secret services, rather than any other component of Israel's security industrial complex. These are distinctions without meaningful difference. The larger point - that Israel's defense industry has exported training and procedures that are being used in service of systematic racism in other countries - Peake is correct about.

WHICH MAKES THE STORY UNTRUE! Jesus, the point isn't whether or not a fraction of the police forces get training in Israel, it's whether the Israeli secret service trained police in a way that lead to the murder of innocent black people. She wasn't having a leisurely teatime talk about random facts about training policemen get, she was specifically advancing a conspiracy theory that blames the Jews for institutional racism and the murder of George Floyd.

Honestly disgusting. Again and again people proving they don't give two sh**ts about antisemitism when it involves their side.

[America Needs R'hllor]

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

No, her point is Jews bad. If her point is about systemic racism, she'd talk about systemic racism rather than spew blood libel meant to incite black people against Jews. Randomly starting to talk about the Israeli secret service is not it.

[America Needs R'hllor]

And if she had said (or even implied) 'Israel taught the Minneapolis police how to kill George Floyd', then that would be heinous. But she didn't. To repeat, her words were:

“Systemic racism is a global issue,” she adds. “The tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services.”

Her point is about systemic racism and the way states through their policing organs collaborate to enforce it on oppressed people. Her phrasing isn't as nuanced as one would hope, but it's disingenuous to impute an antisemitic conspiracy theory from it.

No, her point is Jews bad. If her point is about systemic racism, she'd talk about systemic racism rather than spew blood libel meant to incite black people against Jews. Randomly starting to talk about the Israeli secret service is not it.

Her quote literally began by framing the issue as one of systemic racism. She raised a point about Israel's security services inarticulately, but it's a disingenuous leap of hyperbole to frame that as propagating antisemitism.

Honestly disgusting. Again and again people proving they don't give two sh**ts about antisemitism when it involves their side.

FWIW, it is precisely because I care so deeply about extinguishing antisemitism that I despise seeing accusations of it deployed mendaciously or ignorantly, as they clearly have here.

What she started with is good, but the moment she came up with this blaming the Israeli secret service (which is a deliberate way to make it sound more like a Jewish conspiracy, by the way- the word "secret" is meant to create a more sinister and scary setting to the sentence) for George Floyd's murder, it was rendered worthless. Antisemitism, actually, is very often about this: take a random fact (Israel trains cops for antiterrorism, Israel has illegal settlements, many Jews have earned wealth and influence, most Jews support liberal ideals) and turn it into a sinister conspiracy meant to pit people against the Jews (Israel is to blame for institutional racism, Israel is an illegal colonialist state as a whole and Jews should thus not have a national home, Jews are controlling the world and the media, Jews are undermining our glorious fatherland).

I always ask Corbyn apologist types to imagine themselves talking about anti-black dog whistles the same way they talk about antisemitism, by the way. Try to imagine someone blaming a large black organization for drugs in the street, and it's the same thing. It's relatively subtle, yeah, but it's still terrible. Starmer made a great decision and it makes me very optimistic that Labour can purge most of the antisemitism from its ranks.