Israeli General Election (2019) II: Electric Boogaloo (17.9.2019)

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former PM Barak officially announced his new party. Also joining: prominent anti-Bibi businessman Kobi Richter, feminist activist and Orly Levy's number 3 Yifat Biton and former Deputy IDF Chief of Staff Yair Golan.

Update: Biton just promised that the party will have full gender equality.

It's probably already better than Labor and it doesn't even yet have a name.

The narrative seems to be that this party will unite with Labour and Meretz. IF Barak can help raise the Israeli left back up, maybe he'll compensate for his bad history.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former PM Barak officially announced his new party. Also joining: prominent anti-Bibi businessman Kobi Richter, feminist activist and Orly Levy's number 3 Yifat Biton and former Deputy IDF Chief of Staff Yair Golan.

Update: Biton just promised that the party will have full gender equality.

Moshe Kahlon's number 3 Yifat Biton*

No, Orly Levy's

Moshe Kahlon's number 3 is Yifat Shaha-Biton, currently Housing and Construction Minister. Yifat Biton is a law professor and feminist activist who was Orly Levy's number 3.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Nitsan Horovitz defeated Zandberg in the Meretz leadership election with 56% of the vote: 459 convention delegates against her 383.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Polls are open in the Labour leadership election between Peretz Shaffir and Shmuli (and a nobody). Both Shaffir and Shmuli are trying to present the election as the old guard Peretz versus themselves leading the change camp. 40% are needed to win in the first round, otherwise the top 2 go to a runoff.

Shmuli is trying to present it as a generational fight- Shaffir is saying that generations don't matter, what matters is who's trying to bring real change (which she's the only one offering).

Anyway, like always, I'm supporting the losing candidate In a possible second round between Shmuli and Peretz, I'm starting to lean towards Peretz. She's the only candidate that didn't sink into the manipulations and dirty deals that originally destroyed Labor, so if I'm going to vote for a manipulative liar I'd rather it be one that is capable (like Peretz).

[America Needs R'hllor]

Shmuli is trying to present it as a generational fight- Shaffir is saying that generations don't matter, what matters is who's trying to bring real change (which she's the only one offering).

That's the Shaffir line about Shmuli. As far as I can tell though, Shmuli is mostly talking about change (and how Shaffir can't win, so if you want change vote for him).
I don't find this to be a convincing argument though, since primary polls are unreliable, and self serving statements by politicians are even worse.

Shmuli is being extremely manipulative. He thinks we're all stupid and don't realize that if Peretz doesn't get to 40% then, no matter how the vote breaks up between him and Shaffir, ther'll be a second round. His idea to do a poll between himself and Shaffir was extremely dishonest, so he's just making me and hopefully other Shaffir supporters lean towards Peretz in the second round.

He's also only talking about change, but doesn't suggest any changes other than a young face. He's the status quo candidate, even more than Peretz.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Amir Peretz won the Labour leadership contest with 47% of the vote

[America Needs R'hllor]

Peretz 47%
Shaffir 26.9%
Shmuli 26.3%

[America Needs R'hllor]

When my friend told me that turnout so low in 16:00 today I told him: "Peretz with 46%, huh?"
This was almost spot-on

[America Needs R'hllor]

Barak named his party the Israel Democratic Party. Is this officially a reference to the American Democratic Party? I know the Democratic Party in Italy and the Democratic Movement in France both intentionally chose their names as a reference. It's always funny how foreigners have a positive view of the Democratic Party since everyone in America hates it including most of its supporters.

No, it's translated as "Democratic Israel"- a contrast, like Danny said, to Netanyahu's undemocratic measures.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Education Minister and Jewish Home leader Rafi Peretz just said, on live television, that conversion therapy can be done and that he performed it.

I repeat, Israel's Education Minister just admitted to mentally torturing children.

This is a new f**king low.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Wow i always knew Israeli politics were crazy, but i didnt know that Rafi Peretz is now Prime Minister.

Lmao why did I write Prime Minister?? I was probably too much in a state of shock

Also i really dont want to go down this rabbit hole again, but if you think that this is anywhere near the worst Human Rights Violation under Netanyahu, worth a massive bold script unlike, you know, those Guys in Gaza, then i have a bridge to sell you.

Yes it's better not to go down that hole, because the Gaza situation is way more complex than this and if you read Israeli Supreme Court decision on the matter it'd help you understand that.

Conversion therapy has been denounced by global health organizations, the Israel Medical Association and the Israeli Psychiatrist Union. It's a clear cut case.

[America Needs R'hllor]

I happen to believe that certain Elements of the Israeli left, who think that Conversion therapy, a lack of Gay Marriage or the Haredim not being drafted are the huge moral injustices that the country faces, have a very strange focus.
Jewish gay people are hardly the most underprivileged or "oppressed" people there, lets be serious here.

Thank you, but we'll keep demanding equal rights and talking about all the issues in our country and despite what random Europeans say

Another small point: no one would think it even logical to tell Americans they aren't allowed to talk about healthcare, criminal justice reform or trans rights because drones. But we're.... special.

[America Needs R'hllor]

To be honest, what this whole affair proves is that Rafi Peretz is just a very lousy politician. I mean, Smotrich is more homophobic and definitely much more racist than him, but he's able to keep his mouth shut a bit, while still throwing red meat, which makes him popular. Peretz is just... a walking talking gaffe machine.

I hate Itamar Ben Gvir passionately, but a broken clock and all- what he said a few days ago about the Jewish Home really is true. They a very elitist party which sees itself above all other sects of the religious Zionist population, and you can see that in their insistence that Rafi Peretz, as awful a politician as he is, leads any united list.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

Please leave this thread (one of the bright spots of usually quality discussion on Atlas) and take your dumb racist takes elsewhere, thanks

It's really telling that the thread about Israel is the only one filled with these kinds of takes, and also the "YOU CAN ONLY TALK ABOUT (the incredibly complex issue I've boiled down to evil Jews vs poor Arabs)" takes. Thanks for constantly reminding me why I'm a Zionist.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Lieberman definitely doesn't have a vendetta against Litzman or his partner Deri. This is entirely against Netanyahu.

[America Needs R'hllor]

It will like never happened since Israel hates muslims and would kill every single one of us if they could do so without retribution, but like at this point I'd be fine with the west bank and gaza being incorporated into Israel and them being citizens. The numbers would be sufficient to bring Israel back to sanity like when Rabin was in power (seriously how did such a bad nation elect such a good man? Oh wait I remember they killed him after they did not like him.) Then finally Israel could be an ff nation for good like they were in the short time Rabin was in power.

beyond you edgy edgelord opinions, what is this glorification of the Rabin era. I lived through it and remember it quite well, Israeli society was in many aspects worst than it is and Rabin was far far far far from a good progressive leader.

It's much more profitable campaigning against conversion therapy, indeed.  And it's great if there exists consensus on equal marriage or LGTB rights. The Palestinian question is like the elephant in the room. I guess many people In Israel would like to ignore its existence, even though that's impossible.

No one's ignoring it, its just not a though experiment in a political science course in Amherst.
Most Israelis are aware of the human rights infringement and even a lot of those on the right would say that they are bad per se, but most would call them a necessary evil considering the facts of an on going national conflict.
Take me, I'm a one-stater to a degree, have very little to no sympathy for Zionism, but I'm aware that just ending military control tomorrow will be the catalyst for unbelievable bloodshed. I can't see a good solution atm, or a good solution which is also viable, any shift from the current benchmark would entail a lot of bloodshed.
Now lefties in America\Europe of course don't care, justice for them as no consideration for actual facts of strife on the way to utopian justice. But as that bloodshed may include my blood, or a lot of Palestinian blood I'm naturally wary.

Jewish racism towards Arabs in really a small part of the story here, it's not what's keeping the conflict from being solved.

Eh, I think Jewish racism towards Arabs is a HUGE part of the story, and frankly a huge part of the amputated monster that limps around today calling itself "Zionism." But I also agree that it is only a part of the story.

I wouldn’t say that. I want to make clear that I think it’s the Netanyahu government (and like governments before him)  and their enablers that let his ilk run the country that are the horrible people that have made the country a bad place (it used to be decent at certain points), and some people who vote for Netanyahu and his ilk are still good people but with that one flaw, I don’t see this as an issue to point the finger at a good religion and most of its people at all.

It's ridiculous to think that Netanyahu is evil but that Israel was "decent at certain points". These two ideas are incompatible. On the issues that make him evil in your eyes, Netanyahu is not fundamentally different from any previous Israeli leader or any likely future Israel leader. You either like nationalist garrison states (and think Netanyahu is fine as a normal leader of one) or you don't (and think all their leaders have always been inherently bad).

Or, you could realize that the world isn't black and white- you could still be to the left and think that the early leaders were good because they kept Israel safe during an existential crisis; that some of the latter leaders were brave for seeking peace, which is the only way towards security, while others were bad. Both Netanyahu and Rabin and Begin have done things that European leftists will be "absolutely disgusted" by because they don't always understand the complexities and harshness of the Middle East, and Bagel's analysis is obviously bad. But while the latter were brave enough to secure peace agreements with Jordan and Egypt that made Israel inherently safer, the former made sure to contribute to the stalling of the peace process and kept a status quo that includes Israelis cowering in fear of balloons.

The world is complex. It's not "nationalism bad" or "nationalism good".

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Barak is probably cancelled now. As long as his connections to Epstein aren't explained clearly, I'll oppose any union between his party and Labour-Meretz and will have moral qualms voting for a list incuding him.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

Genuinely asking out of curiosity, why do you believe that she was a negative element of Labor politics?

Mostly from people who are more well-connected than me. Her public image was very respectable and I like her, but it seems pretty well-known that she used very dirty and vicious tactics to gain in-party influence and take down rivals.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Former Labour leader Shelly Yachimovich retires from politics, won't run for the next Knesset. Great at rhetoric, her takedown of Ben Gvir's brother was glorious, but a pretty negative element of Labour politics. Current Labour list:

1. Peretz
2. Shmuli
3. Shaffir
4. Michaeli

Climbin' Merav.

Genuinely asking out of curiosity, why do you believe that she was a negative element of Labor politics?

Mostly from people who are more well-connected than me. Her public image was very respectable and I like her, but it seems pretty well-known that she used very dirty and vicious tactics to gain in-party influence and take down rivals.

Peretz invented those. Anyhow, shocking politics is dirty.

Your friends dislike her because she never sucked up to the losers from the youth branch who thought they should run the party on their socialist platform from the 50’s

It seemed to be a broad agreement between Shmuli, Peretz and Shaffir supporters (the latter aren't even very socialist) that her tactics were even more dirty thant Peretz's

[America Needs R'hllor]

My preference would be a Labour-Meretz-Gesher-Livni list. I definitely hope the pressure makes Peretz reconsider his decision not to merge with Meretz.

But in any case, what I do like in this move is that it's stealing Barak's thunder. He's absolutely morally bankrupt and should just go away.

[America Needs R'hllor]

My preference would be a Labour-Meretz-Gesher-Livni list. I definitely hope the pressure makes Peretz reconsider his decision not to merge with Meretz.

But in any case, what I do like in this move is that it's stealing Barak's thunder. He's absolutely morally bankrupt and should just go away.

How does this "steal Barak's thunder?" If anything it gives cover and distraction to his Epstein problem. I actually like Orly Levy, but it is astonishing to me that the left cannot find a way to coherently and in a unified way present a compelling and credible alternative to Netanyahu's right wing clown show, ESPECIALLY in an election that seems to be rotating around issues that are where the general public largely agrees with the left and not the right.

It is incredible that Gantz, though, is emphasizing that he is actually more hawkish than Bibi and Labor is emphasizing that it is actually less moribund than it seems. Meanwhile Liberman is actually talking about the issues that Israelis care about and in that way he is outmanoevring the left at its own game.

That level of political incompetence is surreal. Liberman giftwrapped this election for the center left and the opposition is not even trying to open it.

It's more complicated than that imo. They should probably talk more about religious-state issues- althought I'd mention they tried that many times in the past elections and it didn't exactly help, and that they'd probably not win any Lieberman voters. But the issue here is a leftist union, which won't take any votes from Likud but rather ensure that no leftist votes go below the threshold. Now, I'd prefer a Meretz-Labour-Gesher-Livni list for sure, and it annoys me that Peretz is putting his ego first while Horovits is really acting genuinely.

But Barak should go away. He's only taking center-left votes, and there was absolutely no need for his party. Yes, some thought at first that his combative style at the head of a center-left list could be a good counter to Netanyahu, but at the recent days he proved to be toxic beyond measure. He's using the same strategy as Netanyahu to brush off his issues. So I'm not ready to present a united front with him, though I'm cetrainly very disappointed that the left is refusing to unite its positive forces and is playing petty ego games.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Ok, so this is it: Meretz and Barak are uniting, as well as Stav Shaffir. Shaffir will be placed 2nd, Yair Golan (Democratic Israel) 3rd and Yifat Biton (Democratic Israel) 7th. Barak, and this is interesting, gave up on a realistic place and will be 10th, probably in exchange for a first choice of a Ministry if the party joins the next government. Him being pushed back is likely because of the Epstein issue that made Meretz reluctant. Top 10:

1. Horovits (Meretz)
2. Shaffir (Labour)
3. Yair Golan (Democratic Israel)
4. Tamar Zandberg (Meretz)
5. Ilan Gilon (Meretz)
6. Isawi Farij (Meretz)
7. Yifat Biton (Democratic Israel), possibly someone else from the party
8. Yael Cohen Paran (Green Movement, comes with Shaffir)
9. Democratic Israel representative (I'd wager Yaya Fink)
10. Ehud Barak (Democratic Israel)
11. A Shaffir reserved spot

It'll be named, as Hnv1 called already, "the Democratic Camp". Shocking.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Lol Labour. This is pretty hilarious.

a/ legally unsure how Shaffir is going to move here. She needs another Labour MK to officially split without a sanction
b/ the list shows the depth of personal hatred, Horowitz made sure Zandberg, Gilon, and Freg are we settled and pushed backwards Raz and especially Rozin.
C/ Buskila and Fink who joined Barak are also pushed way down, the level of hate for them within Meretz and Labour dictated this move

For me this doesn't change anything. I will not vote for a list with Gilon and Bitton in realistic spots

I don't think Horowitz intentionally pushed Rozin backwards. Raz yes, but Rozin was his ally.

Also, can't say I agree with your choice I despise Barak (and that's why I'm not yet sure if I'll vote for them) but pragmatism is necessary to get any goals accomplished.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Ok, so this is it: Meretz and Barak are uniting, as well as Stav Shaffir. Shaffir will be placed 2nd, Yair Golan (Democratic Israel) 3rd and Yifat Biton (Democratic Israel) 7th. Barak, and this is interesting, gave up on a realistic place and will be 10th, probably in exchange for a first choice of a Ministry if the party joins the next government. Him being pushed back is likely because of the Epstein issue that made Meretz reluctant. Top 10:

1. Horovits (Meretz)
2. Shaffir (Labour)
3. Yair Golan (Democratic Israel)
4. Tamar Zandberg (Meretz)
5. Ilan Gilon (Meretz)
6. Isawi Farij (Meretz)
7. Yifat Biton (Democratic Israel), possibly someone else from the party
8. Yael Cohen Paran (Green Movement, comes with Shaffir)
9. Democratic Israel representative (I'd wager Yaya Fink)
10. Ehud Barak (Democratic Israel)
11. A Shaffir reserved spot

It'll be named, as Hnv1 called already, "the Democratic Camp". Shocking.

no. 9 will be Noa Rotman, the granddaughter.

a/ legally unsure how Shaffir is going to move here. She needs another Labour MK to officially split without a sanction

Can she argue that the Democratic Camp is a new party so it's not as if she's switching directly from Labor to Meretz?

She didn't actually leave Labour in the Knesset to become an independent like Orly Levy did. So I believe she's legally fine.