Israel general discussion

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That's a very interesting discussion happening here. I don't have time to write a huge effortpost (exam tomorrow, hahahimdead). But a few points:

1. I agree with Sunrise on most points, actually. Though I do disagree that Obama presented a real break from Israel- he mostly continued to support us when it was needed, and I actually am supportive of the U.S. putting pressure- on both sides (with the Palestinian side, the one that derailed peace more, receiving the most pressure), so he wasn't entirely wrong though he handled the situation badly.

2. I also believe that giving Reform and Conservative Jews in Israel full recognition will only have positive effects- currently, the Orthodox Haredim are making Judaism almost hated for many secular Jews. It's potentially dangerous for those who believe in religion and tradition, especially since the longterm trend might favour secularization like in the rest of the Western World. Many secular Israelis would feel closer to the Jewish tradition if they felt it was more open and pluralistic. It's different in America, which isn't really a greenhouse for Jews like Israel.

3. Switching our alliance to Russia would definitely not be something I'd support. Both because of the moral issue- it would cause the (powerful) LGBT community to turn even more sharply to the left since now Israeli interests would be opposed to LGBT interests. Additionally, it's generally not a good idea to go with the reactionary side in global conflicts. Putin might be strong now, but he won't be there forever.

4. Which brings me to my next point- the Democratic Party. I'm, too, worried about the state of things. We need to have both parties be pro-Israeli, considering how American politics are a pendelum. Right now, the situation is fine- the Senate Democratic Leader is one of Israel's greatest allies in American politics. If the AOC types keep winning, it'll become problematic, and the Democratic youth's anti-Israel views are certainly worrying, but I have hope that the extremism will ebb. But, if the Israeli-Palestinian conflict continues for years more without any resolution in sight, it'll get bad for us. I also don't view the Iran Deal as a sign of anti-Israel Democrats- I'm on the fence, but there are some legitimate arguments that this deal is in our interests. So we gotta accept that we have our differences, and that they won't tear us apart.

5. True Federalist is right about the Hamas issue- they're terrible etc but I, for one, am tired of talking about these cycles.

6. DavidB is correct about Women on the Wall and BLM Also, Kingpolen sure has a long memory- I don't even rememer the last time I discussed BLM

[America Needs R'hllor]

Despite initially claiming that he supports surrogacy for homosexual parents, Netanyahu has once again allied himself with the homophobes and voted against the clause that was supposed to include homosexuals in the new, anti-gay surrogacy law. Who would've thought.

[America Needs R'hllor]

A Jewish Conservative Rabbie was arrested and questioned by the police today for the crime of conducting marriage ceremonies outside if the Chief Rabbinate, after the Orthodox Haifa Rabbinic Courthouse filed a complaint against him. This is the first time that the law condemning anyone who conducts wedding ceremonies outside of the Rabbinate for up to two years in prison is enforced. He says that the police knocked on his house's door in 5:30 and took him to the station like the lowliest of criminals.

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Very good. I like Ben Gurion's principle of "the synagogue I don't pray in is Orthodox". Be as observant (or not) as you want. But don't distort Judaism.

You support religious oppression? Because that's purely what they did to this Rabbie by punishing him for conducting a ceremony. It wasn't even recognized by the state- it's just a ceremony.
The Attorney General ordered the police not to arrest this man, and for a good reason. Today we saw Israel come one step closer to theocracy.

Also, my university, the Hebrew University in Jerusalem, declared in an email that they fully support the lgbtq community's struggle for parental rights. This is after many large companies declared that they will give lgbtq workers a day off inthe strike scheduled for Sunday. The university is closed in Sunday due to Tisha B'Av, so they obviously didn't make the same statement, but implied they would if the university worked that day.

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Looks like we're getting a new war.

I hope it'll calm down. Not a good time, especially considering Hamas now has missiles with a range that can hit Jerusalem.

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Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see

[America Needs R'hllor]

Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see

He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.

Yeah, Eyal. He's a law student in the Hebrew University (which does beg the question of how he managed to be so involved in all this with the exams coming at us in full force, lol). He helped us out in draping the Har Hatzofim campus with pride flags etc, a really nice guy. He's clearly going for politics, what with all the Meretz MKs he's hanging around with, so I hope he has a successful career.

Anyway- Labour leader Avi Gabay nominated Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni as leader of the opposition, replacing Herzog (who will head the Jewish Agency). This is a move that will likely keep the ZU unified for the time being.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Widespread protests and a massive rally by the LGBTQ community yesterday. In Jerusalem, police arrested two peaceful protestors, one of whom I personally know. The picture of him, draped by a pride flag with his hands and even legs (wtf?) cuffed is something our foreign ministry will probably not want all the gay tourists from Europe and the US to see

He’s a local contender for Meretz, I wasn’t that impressed by him on the news.

Anyway it’s good to have liberal protests, though I personally am against this human trade.

Yeah, Eyal. He's a law student in the Hebrew University (which does beg the question of how he managed to be so involved in all this with the exams coming at us in full force, lol). He helped us out in draping the Har Hatzofim campus with pride flags etc, a really nice guy. He's clearly going for politics, what with all the Meretz MKs he's hanging around with, so I hope he has a successful career.

Anyway- Labour leader Avi Gabay nominated Hatnua leader Tzipi Livni as leader of the opposition, replacing Herzog (who will head the Jewish Agency). This is a move that will likely keep the ZU unified for the time being.

I was once a student at that law faculty. Let’s be honest the course in property law hadn’t changed since the 80’s.

Not gonna argue- considering my first ex is a law student, I have a grudge on that faculty anyway I study Economics and International Relations (yeah, I know) in that uni.

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MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella

MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot

Eldad Yaniv? Wow this is a trainwreck lol.
Also, Broshi now refuses to quit and threatens to sue Gabbay if he doesn't apologize. I'm fully behind Gabbay on this one- Broshi has always been slimey and corrupt, and now he proved himself a sexual predator, and dares threaten his party leader? What a POS.

[America Needs R'hllor]

MK Baalol resigns over the new basic law. With Herzog soon out we’ll have 2 new MKs in Tiviev (who doesn’t even like Labour anymore) and Moshe Mizrachi who was once an MK and generally a decent fella

MK Broshi has sexual misconduct allegations piling up and Gabay and other MKs demand he resigns. We might get Eldad Yaniv as an MK even though he quit the Labour Party last year the maggot

Eldad Yaniv? Wow this is a trainwreck lol.
Also, Broshi now refuses to quit and threatens to sue Gabbay if he doesn't apologize. I'm fully behind Gabbay on this one- Broshi has always been slimey and corrupt, and now he proved himself a sexual predator, and dares threaten his party leader? What a POS.

Well he should have resigned after grabbing Nahmias-Warbin bum. However, I don't think he needs to resign other allegations 15 years ago.
This is regardless of him being a knob and a politico for the farmers lobby and I'll be glad to see shipped back to his cattle.

Yeah, combined with his recent actions it's quite clear that he's still a creep. And I agree with your other assessment of him.

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Livni is being quite active as leader of the opposition. She agreed to be termed as left wing, met all sorts of NGOs, and went on sponsored campaign online.

I wonder if she see Gabbay's weakness as an opportunity to run as head of the ZU by herself. I think that at this point some of Labour's MKs might even embrace the notion.

If I'll be completely honest, I wouldn't oppose it either. She's not perfect, but at this point she's probably better than Gabbay.

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Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Jerusalem also has Attorney and social justice activist Yossi Havilio, who's the most left-wing candidate. He aligned himself with the LGBTQ community during the latest round of protests and seems like a favourite of leftist activists, including from Meretz, the community and I guess also Labour.

And isn't Stav Shaffir likely to run for Mayor in TLV?

[America Needs R'hllor]

Mayoral elections are coming up and each of the three big cities present a bland mix that is a microcosms of their political nature

Tel Aviv - a host of candidates from the left or centre left:
Incumbent Ron Holdai - mainstream Labour though his personal opinions are more to the left. I think he got this
Assaf Zamir - his mellow deputy, son of a former mayor, could be characterized as the left wing of Yesh Lapid
Meital Lehavi Meretz - futile run, probably in order to get more council seats (currently the largest faction).
Assah Harel - a leftist TV anchorman and comedian

Jerusalem - a host of candidates from the right and centre-right
MK Zeev Elkin - Likud Minister
Moshe Leon - connected to Lieberman, Shas, and parts of the Likud
Yisso Deitsch - Haredi, but does not gain the support of all of them
Avi Salman - some local Likud activist
MK Rachel Azaria (Kulano) - former councilor, a 'pluralistic' candidate
Offer Berkovitch - current deputy mayor, pluralistic, could be seen as of Yesh Attid

Jerusalem also has Attorney and social justice activist Yossi Havilio, who's the most left-wing candidate. He aligned himself with the LGBTQ community during the latest round of protests and seems like a favourite of leftist activists, including from Meretz, the community and I guess also Labour.

And isn't Stav Shaffir likely to run for Mayor in TLV?

Havilio gets less than 5% of the vote. Not really an interesting candidate

Shaffir hadn't announced anything yet, she won't get funding from Labour as Holdai is their man, and I can't see her getting anything of it. I think she'll back down
 
Also, I think MK Nachman Shai is running in Jerusalem, but he's been very quiet since announcing.

Well, I've seen quite a lot Havilio signs- probably as much as Elkin, Azaria (whose bus signs are more often than not torn by hateful Haredi fanatics) and Leon. He probably will get less than 5%, but there clearly is enthusiasm for him in a very small left-wing circle.
Btw, Salman is the loudest in his bigotry and seems like he's positioning himself to get support from socially conservative right-wingers. He made a baseless accusation that LGBTQ activists burned a door in his campaign HQ and repeatedly attacked the community. I remember when he was asked about the Pride Parade, he said he's against it and made an outrageous lie that he spoke to leaders of the Jerusalem LGBTQ organizations who told them they agree because it doesn't fit the city or whatever. His efforts, I guess, will be ultimately futile because Elkin will most likely gain most of the bigot support. If I had to make a prediction, Elkin will probably win- Leon is probably meh for most people at this point, and the center-right-center-left vote is split between Berkovitch, Azaria and Havilio.

As for Shaffir- I agree running doesn't make much sense. If I had to guess, she might be making these noises to position herself for a (likely successful, if it's in 4 years) campaign when Holdai retires.

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Who will you vote for, Parrotguy? And when exactly will these elections take place?

October 30th. And I'm not voting- my official residency is in Ma'alot (which does help because I got a scholarship for all the money I spend on public transportation ), I just study in Jerusalem. I'm obviously not going to make the trip to Ma'alot to vote in the election there.
If I was eligible in Jerusalem, I'd probably vote for Havilio (or potentially Berkovitch if he had any chance of winning, which I doubt).

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Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

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Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

Not it’s not. It had a nice beach but that’s it, it was a sh**t hole in 90’s before Hamas and even the PA, and it only got worse since. Even more over populated, overtly religious, ramshackle, with absolutely no free space to build In.

Gaza is a metastasizing tumor that no one can chop off. The only hope is a sea and airport with Egypt giving swathes of land in Sinai to move some population there.

I’m sorry but the whole Singapore of the ME is utter bollocks, everyone who has been there know it. And the sad thing is everyone knew it was coming since48

Fair. But I still don't see how all that delegitimizes self-defence by the Israeli army, against any threat to Israeli citizens that comes out of it. Defending the citizens is one of the most important roles of the government.

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I don't even really have a major problem with Isreali action on Gaza though I feel it is definitely too disproportionate. The settlements and Isreal actions in the Westbank I can see no justification for.

I find this position much more legitimate than that of many left-wing critics of Israel. If this was the bulk of the criticism, I'd be much more sympathetic to anti-Israeli leftists, but as it stands, the focus on Gaza reveals many of these critics to deny Israel's right to defend itself and thus exist, and specifically target Israel's actions there while ignoring, or focusing less, on the actions of numerous other western countries against targets much further from their borders. This is an indication that much of this criticism stems from the fact that Israel is the Jewish state.

The settlements, however, are something else- I also find them hard to defend, especially the radical, new ones which are basically a bunch of caravans holding the government by its balls. Though, of course, some settlement criticisms are also blatantly anti-Jewish, such as that of the BDS.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Getting angry and militant unfortunately tends to get you killed when facing superior force.

Also, Gaza is geniuenly a place with potential. If Hamas hadn't spent all the the support and money they received on weapons meant to murder Israeli citizens, Gaza could've been a good place to live. So if the answer to that is spending more money on getting angry and militant and murdering Israelis, what should Israel do?
Yeah, I agree with you- the settlements are much, much harder to justify.

Would you support the handing over of roads, water/electronic necessities, and settlements to Palestine?
This map is unacceptable.

I support the right of Israel to exist and I support the rights of Palestinians. Peace must be sustained and democracy normalized for Israelis and Palestinians alike.

Roads, water\electronic necessities? Of course. I subscribe to the genral liberal idea that every country needs to have "welfare borders"- you can't let a potential Palestinian country NOT have the necessities it needs. As for settlements- no, I refuse to leave Jews to their fate amongst a hostile population. In a possible agreement, many tiny and small settlements would, unfourtunately, have to be dismantled. The large population centers like Ariel, Gush Etzion etc have to be handed over to Israel in exchange for other territories.

I'm a pragmatist- I'm willing to compromise on many issues truly important to a potential Palestinian country, but they'll have to compromise on issues important to Israel, giving up the right of return a very important one.

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I'm a pragmatist- I'm willing to compromise on many issues truly important to a potential Palestinian country, but they'll have to compromise on issues important to Israel, giving up the right of return a very important one.

I assume you mean a right to return to Israel "proper" (which they currently don't have in the first place, and rightly so) as opposed to a right of return to hypothetical "Palestine"?

Of course, I don't think we should dictate the hypothetical Palestine's immigration laws- in the same way they can't dictate ours.
Sovereignity is also a reason I'm opposed to demanding a demilitarized Palestine- it's not only unfair, unsustainable and unrealistic, but also outright damaging since Israel will never be threatened by a Palestinian army, rather by terrorist organizations which will just flourish in a demilitarized Palestine.

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It wouldn't be threatened by a Palestinian army, but the concern is - and it would require a change of government in Jordan of course - that it would be used as a forward base for a large Arab attack.

Eh, I'm not afraid of that. If they want to get aggressive, they can bring it on- we'll crush them like always. But I think the Arabic countries learned, by now, that it's not the way to go. What I do fear is the erosion of Israeli society and the bitter divisions caused, in a large part, by the ongoing conflict.

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A little controversy from the last couple days that shows just how goddamn backwards our country is:

A bridge is supposed to be built in the most travesed road in the country, to make life much easier for people who want to walk through. They decided that it's impossible to shut down this road during the week, so they'd do it in weekends. The Haredi Rabbies started sending their brainwashed zombies to protest, and the weakling Likud Minister Yisrael Katz immediately ordered the works in the weekend stopped. Now, the works will be suspended in half a year (a way of saying "let the next government handle it").

So, to summarize, important works to improve our national infaustracture were halted because of a bunch of theocratic 100 year-olds. Honestly, if ever the secular Israelis get the power to enforce our policies unimpended by religious\haredi parties, I'd support a zero-thoughtfulness policy- send public transportation through their neighbourhoods during weekends, take down fences that prevent cars from driving through their neighbourhoods in shabbat, and if they try violence, respond appropriately. I'm sick and tired of this tyrannous, theocratic population and as they showed by passing a law allowing their Interior Minister to prevent secular municipalities from letting businesses open during shabbat, and their forceful shutdown of works in the secular fortress of Israel (Tel Aviv), they clearly don't have any regard for OUR way of life. We should have none for theirs.

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Syrians forces shot down a Russian jet while Israel was dropping bombs on Iranians and we didn't talk about it?

It's a crazy world and lots of other things were going on. Also, Israel has conducted so many airstrikes in Syria now it's no longer news.

The shootdown appears to have been a major foul-up by Syrian Air Defence.

The Russians initially blamed it on Israel and their media filled up with fire-breathing antisemitism, then Putin said it's an accident and their media stopped talking about it. Now they flip-flopped yet again and are blaming it on Israel. However, their punishment of "giving Syria S-300 anti-air missiles" is BS- this defence system will go only to Russian forces to defend themselves. It might limit the range of operations a bit, but the IDF is prepared for it.

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Two stray missiles from the Palestinians with one landing in the ocean.

The missiles aren't "stray". The one landing in the ocean was a clear threat- it reached a long distance, and whoever launched it clearly tried to show that they can threaten Israel's center but didn't want to actually hit it. The other missile hit a family's home in the city of Be'er Sheva, exploding right inside the children's room. They were saved only because the mother took her three children to the safe room.

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JH rescinded their demand to get the MoD after Bibi claimed some obscure claims about a delicate security situation. election for now avoided, though this narrow coalition will face a lot of difficulties.

Bibi will have to appoint a Minister of Foreign Affairs though before the supreme court forces him. I bet Steinitz or Hanegbi will get it.

What about Kulanu? Kahlon seems pretty intent on an election to escape the aftermath of his economic policies.

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Given the scandals swirling around PM Binyamin Netanyahu, is Likud and its governing coalition screwed in next year's election, whenever it might be held?  

LOL no. The Israeli left is frankly pathetic and there's a personality cult around Netanyahu that he's the only one who can lead Israel with no alternative. Even if he doesn't make it to the election, the Israeli public most likely won't vote for the "traitor lefties" in large enough numbers for a governable coalition. Lastly, the scandals aren't impacting Bibi's support, on the contrary- right-wingers who think everyone is conspiring against him seem to coalesce around him. They don't care about his corruption and elitism.