Al Franken accused of sexual harassment

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It's a shame, I really wanted him as the running mate on whatever Dem ticket ended up emerging. I'd been a fan of his for literally decades. I even listened to Air America in its early days. I'm very disappointed in him.

We're in a new era now, and things like this are unacceptable. Yes, people did far worse than him in the past and the present, but that's not the bar we should hold people to. Franken should go.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end  

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

1) Not sure why groped is in scare quotes.  Franken groped her (among other things), there's really no ambiguity regarding that fact.

2) I'm not sure what this has to do with anything.  I mean, yes, it looks like this woman sexually harassed that guy, but that doesn't make what Franken did any less horrible.  He still needs to resign immediately even if this was the only time he did something like that.  Once is one time too many, period.  

3) I'm not saying this was your intent or anything (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't, but this still needs to be said since some other posters seem to be moving in this direction), but acting like this has any relevance to what Franken did to this woman is straight out of the Clintons' slut-shaming playbook.  It would be like saying "So one of the women Roy Moore 'sexually assaulted' has been divorced three times and once filed for bankruptcy."

Again, not saying you were trying to do that (and I'd be shocked if you were), but there is an long history of powerful men getting away with treating women horribly by digging up dirt on the victim that into the story.  I'm not saying Franken's accuser is an angel or that grabbing that guy's a** was anything other than completely unacceptable, but let's not fall for this tired trick.  Whatever else this woman has or hasn't done, during her interaction with Franken, she was the victim of completely unacceptable behavior by a man who now holds one of the highest political offices in America.  She has a right not to be groped in her sleep, period.

4) Mods get to use profanity uncensored?  When will the double-standards end  

^^^ Thank you for this. As you can tell by my permanent Username 🙄 Al Franken is someone that I looked up to. I read all his books and I was proud that he was my senator. I used to brag about it to people. So when I heard the news about what he did I felt like someone kicked me in the stomach. But I would never defend him for that. I see people all over twitter and here trying to Justify what he did and it’s making it worse. We really just gotta let go of him and find someone better to take his place.
(had to delete links bc I haven’t made enough posts yet)

Before the sexual harassment allegations came out about Franken, I'd wanted him to run for President in 2020, so I know what you mean.  It always sucks when one of your heroes lets you down, but yeah, people who try to defend or rationalize what he did are definitely making things worse.  What Franken did was unacceptable, period.  It may not be as bad as some of the stuff other people have done and the first accuser may have her own issues, but neither of those things is an excuse.  I completely agree that he needs to resign and that we have to find someone better to take his place.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So on the same USO tour where Franken "groped" her, Here she is grabbing the guitar players ass, After he pushed her away.

As a man who's been inappropriately touched by a conventionally attractive woman without my consent, this makes me cringe.

As a man who has been through a few episodes like this, it is actually X's opinion that offends me most.  As if he is some moral authority of anything.

All due respect, but if you were offended by my post then frankly that says a lot more about you than it does about anything else (and none of it good).

The spirit of your argument is absolutely correct...this behavior is inexcusable and unacceptable.  But you come off as respecting the rule more than the reasons for the rules, and that makes it seem like virtue signaling.  

I've been groped inappropriately and I went through a very uncomfortable experience as a young child from another boy that I wont go into detail about.  I've been stalked and harrassed online as a young teenager.

My take is that this is a cycle of abuse that perpetuates itself, and yes, is unfortunately up to those abused to stop it.  For me, that starts with forgiveness.  Not only for their sake, but mine.  Showing a little grace where there is pain and darkness.

Your post showed nothing but haughty moral grandstanding when seen through the lens of my life experience.  And yes, that reaction says a lot about the "nothing good" that I have experienced, so in that way...you were right.

I’m not sure how my response to TexasGurl could’ve been interpreted as respecting the rules for their own sake while dismissing the importance of the reasons for their existence or the causes of the problem, but that certainly wasn’t my intention.  My point was that the fact that one of Franken’s accusers sexually harassed someone should not be used to excuse his behavior and I felt some posters were really starting to head in that direction.  I am also really sorry about what you’ve had to go through.  I’d say more, but frankly I don’t know that there’s anything I can say here that will help.  I almost wonder if you didn’t just misinterpret my post because it seems like you’re upset that I failed to discuss the way cycles of abuse can factor into sexual abuse, but I’m not sure what that has to with what TexasGurl said in the post I was responding to so I’m not sure why you’d expect my response to focus on that.  

If you think I’m just engaging in a bunch of self-congratulatory moral grandstanding that’s unfortunate because I’m not posturing.  Preventing sexual harassment, sexual abuse, child abuse, domestic violence, and helping the victims of such revolting acts has always been something extremely dear to my heart for a number of reasons.  If you think I’m full of sh!t, that’s your right, but I stand by everything that I said in response to TexasGurl since it was true then and it’s just as true now.  With all due respect, I really don’t see how my post could’ve reasonably been interpreted in the way you described in your post.

As to my “says nothing good” post, I thought you were saying you were offended by the idea that Franken’s initial accuser committing sexual harassment somehow mitigates the fact that Franken groped her.  If that wasn’t what you meant then I apologize for that comment.

Furthermore...I know more than one person who were sexually abused as children by adults who are afraid to seek help or talk beyond hushed tones to those they trust because they are afraid of the consequences meted out by people who have no connection to the situation for the abuser.

Your attitude perpetuates that, X.  They have found a way tto forgive with no professional help.

This needs to be a conversation.  An airing of dirty laundry.  Working through it.  NOT an inquisition.

I’m sorry you feel that way, but I could easily say the same thing about some of the stuff you’ve posted.  And I’m pretty damn sure that you’re wrong about my views preventing victims of sexual abuse from coming forward.  The idea that holding people accountable for using their power to sexually abuse others is “an inquisition” is ridiculous at best.  Or are Kevin Spacey, Donald Trump, and Roy Moore just the victims of a moralizing witchunt?  I agree that this needs to be a conversation, but that doesn’t mean folks like Franken shouldn’t be held accountable.  The man is a US Senator and we have a right to expect that our elected officials haven’t sexually harassed people.  This isn’t an unreasonable expectation in any way, shape, or form.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

In cases where people use their power to abuse those with less power for simple dominance and sexual gratification, it is pretty cut and dry.

But so many assaults are committed were the power dynamic is much more convoluted and the relationship complicated. These are the types where the legal system and most certainly the public at large fail the victims.  The existence of mandatory reporting laws prevent therapists from helping the victim beyond the most basic anonymous details.  An unintended negative consequence of a law with the best of intentions.  How do we address this?

I actually don't think we disagree much.  We focus on different parts of the problem because we approach it very differently.  And no, it is not unreasonable to expect our elected officials to not sexually harass others.  I also think if we go after this with too much anger and we look for vengeance, we will only help the toxic culture of silence and secrecy that has kept the cycle going.

I think you're probably that right that we're focusing on different aspects of the problem more than anything else.  I also agree that this issue can often be a lot more complex than most people appreciate in terms of the underlying causes of sexually abusive behavior.  Even with some of the worst cases we've recently seen such as the Kevin Spacey allegations, it's since come out that his father was a child molester who (at the very least) molested one of Spacey's brothers.  So that cycle of abuse reared its ugly head once again right there.  However, while this provides us with at least some semblance of an explanation, it's obviously not an excuse either.  I think one thing that really contributes to the culture of silence is the widespread perception that the abusers can usually get away with it and/or that every bad thing a victim might've ever done will become the story everyone focuses on.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Rubio says the r-word:

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/361944-rubio-al-franken-should-consider-resigning

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Also:

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As blatantly hypocritical as this is...he’s not wrong.