Pro-Jesus Jews paid Rick Santorum

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.

 

This, they really are a conversion plot.  I doubt Santorum would like it if a group people calling themselves Catholics formed a group called Christians for Mohammed and started actively coordinating with Muslim religious organizations to convert Christians to de facto Islam.  Actually...wow...I am trying to imagine the rage that would come from the Christian right if such a group became active all across the U.S.  lol

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.

I have doubts as to whether most messianic jews believe in trinity doctrine.

 

A lot of them certainly do, but in any event, even if they did they'd still be pariahs at best.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Well, if he only spoke at some event, this might not matter too much. If he expresses strong support for their missionary work in the Jewish community, that would be more serious, especially if they can get it on tape.

"Messianic" Judaism is as much an oxymoron as "kosher pork". They are considered apostates among Jews if of Jewish origin -- or frauds if they are missionaries not of Jewish origin (some of these fellows had no idea of the significance of Shema Yisrael and did not know what a bagel is). One need not obey kosher dietary laws to be Jewish (Reform), but accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior and especially the Christian Trinity defines one as a Christian.

Jews are not going to vote anywhere near a majority for any Republican nominee for President. The only place in which  the difference between the Jewish vote going 70% for President Obama and going 90% for President Obama will be those states likely to be close anyway. It could be the difference between winning and losing Arizona, Indiana, and Missouri.

I have doubts as to whether most messianic jews believe in trinity doctrine.

 

A lot of them certainly do, but in any event, even if they didn't they'd still be pariahs at best.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Religious freedom includes the freedom to embrace, abandon or change religion. It also includes the right to share your faith with anyone willing to listen.

The notion that if you are ethnically Askenazi then you should or ought practise Judaism [or be an atheist] is nonsense. Religious freedom includes the freedom of persons of Askenazi descent to embrace any religion, including the belief in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. Part of the religious freedom of Christians is the freedom to share their faith in the Resurrection of Jesus Christ to any person whom is willing to listen, including people of Askenazi descent.

Askenazi folk whom have exercised their religious freedom by embracing Jesus Christ don't forfeit their right to organize fellow believers, host conferences or hire speakers. What is being suggested is here is utterly outrageous. The alternative is demanding that Christians shun these people. While some Jews may shun such folks for theological reasons, it makes no theological sense for a Christian to shun another human being for embracing Jesus Christ.

They have every right to do all of that. And the rest of the Jews have every right to dislike them. And evey politician has to understand that by getting closely identified with them, he antagonizes other Jews.

Sure they have the "right" to, just as people have the right to vote against Jewish politicians for that reason or hate Obama and vote against him because he's black. That doesn't make it any less morally repugnant.

So some Jews who converted to Christianity support Rick Santorum. Uh, who cares?

Jews for Jesus are not...typical converts.  They still pray in Hebrew, refer to Jesus as "Yeshua," use an Old Testament-heavy liturgy, and sometimes even still keep Kosher or the Sabbath.  It's...a very weird movement, and a lot of Jews accuse Jews for Jesus of being primarily a kind of conversion plot to trick Jews into thinking that they can accept Jesus and still be Jewish.  "Messianic Jews" would respond by saying that they aren't "Christian" at all, but rather Jews who accept the coming of the Jewish Messiah, and that he was Jesus of Nazareth.

 

This, they really are a conversion plot.  I doubt Santorum would like it if a group people calling themselves Catholics formed a group called Christians for Mohammed and started actively coordinating with Muslim religious organizations to convert Christians to de facto Islam.  Actually...wow...I am trying to imagine the rage that would come from the Christian right if such a group became active all across the U.S.  lol

That's not really a good analogy, since in embracing Islamic doctrines on Jesus they'd be going against the Nicene Creed and Christianity and would cease being Christian. And would obviously not be Catholic since they'd hold views entirely against the Vatican's teachings and papal edicts. A better analogy is some group that would go around preaching that to truly follow Jesus you'd have to convert to Islam and accept Islam teachings on Jesus, since this is kind of what mainstream Islam actually preaches I wouldn't find it anymore "offensive" than standard attempts to convert Christians to Islam.

The fact that Messianic Jews keep Jewish traditions and all doesn't strike me as very important. So basically people are saying it's OK for Jews to convert to Christianity as long as they abandon all Jewish traditions in the process but not if they do it and keep them? That's really quite odd. I should note that it's quite common for people to keep traditions from their old church if they convert, for example people raised in churches that put a big emphasis on Lent might still put a lot of focus on it even if they convert to a church that doesn't, or do the Sign of the Cross if raised that way even if converting to a church that doesn't, and that isn't controversial at all.

And really the only real controversy I see in the Messianic Jewish doctrine is that if they accept all the teachings about Jesus they'd have to accept the New Testament which makes it pretty hard to argue as well that all the Old Testament kosher laws and whatnot are still in effect. But really that's their business not mine, nor do I see it as a reason to vote against any politician supported by them (not that there aren't hordes of other reasons to vote against Santorum.)

 

The Jews for Jesus people believe in the trinity doctrine, believe that Jesus is their Lord and Savior, go around trying to convert Jews to their brand of evangelical Christianity.  It's just as obvious that they're not Jews as it is that the people in my analogy would not be Christians.  Also, with all due respect, whether or not you see it as a reason to vote against someone is not the point.  What matters is that the Jews who might conceivably vote for Santorum are also the most likely to see any association with Jews for Jesus as a big reason to vote against Santorum (and by big I mean that it would make Santorum a non-starter).  I'm a fairly secular reform Jew and I could go on for weeks about how much I abhor the Jews for Jesus groups, I can't even begin to imagine the intensity of the resentment Orthodox Jews almost certainly harbor towards them.  Of course, I would have never even considered voting for Santorum regardless, but still, you have to understand that the Messianic "Jewish" Christians are really the Pariahs of Judaism.  That said, I agree with ag that merely speaking at some of their events isn't enough of an association to cause a complete implosion in Santorum's support among Republican NYC Orthodox Jews (assuming it even exists in large enough numbers to be relevant, which I'm not sure I believe).  However, it could definitely cost him some votes and quite possibly enough for him to lose congressional districts he would've won, even without a full-scale implosion.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I can only speak for myself, but my hostility towards the "Jews" for Jesus groups is greatly exacerbated by the fact that they pretend to still be Jews and do so as a tactic to try to trick Jews into converting. I don't have any problem with Jews who decide to convert to another religion (or simply decide they want to be atheists or agnostics).  I have always hated the idea that if you are born a certain religion, than you have to be that religion.  That said, while I don't have much hostility towards Jews who convert, I do have quite a bit of hostility towards the Christian groups actively trying to convert Jews (even if they are within their rights to do so, though I doubt many of these groups would be so accepting of religious "diversity" if the group were Christians for Mohammed, but I digress).  However, there are many reasons for this (not the least of which is the history of other groups trying to wipe us out and of Christians forcibly converting Jews).  All due respect to BTRD, but having relatives who got mad b/c of the church a family member got married in really isn't even anywhere close to being comparable (I'm not trying to trivialize it, it's just that facts are facts).  However, "Jews" for Jesus are not simply Jews who converted.  They pretend to be Jews for the specific purpose of creating confusion within the Jewish community and then manipulating that confusion to try to lure in actual Jews and trick the uninformed into converting.  To argue that that is a run-of-the-mill conversion or just another type of Judaism is absurd at best and feigned ignorance at worst.  "Jews" for Jesus are up there with the Mormons who were trying to "convert" the bodies of Holocaust victims in terms of offensiveness to the Jewish community.