Senate Bill: Atlasian Education Modernization Act (Rejected)

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As I've said in numerous other speeches regarding this bill, Atlasia's education system is in need of drastic reform.  I think the reasons why we need reform are self-evident, and they are listed in the second section of this bill.  While I know there are areas of this bill that some would like to change, my only request is that any amendments relate to the original goals of this bill, which is improving the quality of all schools and helping the regional governments craft education policies that work best for them, as has been done in the Northeast and, most recently, the IDS.

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Unfriendly unless the amendment is modified to guarantee the right of teachers to unionize.

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Unfriendly unless the amendment is modified to guarantee the right of teachers to unionize.

The constitution already does that so what's the point

Where does it say that?  I checked it and couldn't find any mention of unions.

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In that case, I will deem the amendment friendly.

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I am considering withdrawing this bill and starting from scratch.

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If the sponsor wishes to withdraw,  I would like to sponsor.

I am considering withdrawing this bill and starting from scratch.

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For cost reasons, I'm going to have to deem all of TNF's amendments unfriendly except for the one addressing section five.

I agree with MaxQue that standardized testing is necessary, but such tests must be as limited as possible (as they are in the Northeast).  I think the bill's current policy on testing is the better one.

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Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

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Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

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Keep in mind that in Finland, the use of tuition fees is strictly prohibited and all schools are well-funded.  The prohibition of tuition fees hasn't stopped schools in Finland from ranking highest in the world, let alone existing.

I don't understand why we should subsidize private schools to make up for banning tuition, though. Why subsidize the private education sector when we could simply just pump more money into the public sector and drive the perceived need for private schooling out altogether? I'm all for banning tuition fees and private schools, but I don't want the state to make up the difference. We shouldn't pay a dime for people to educate their children outside of the regular public school system.

I want private schools to still exist, but at the same time I would like to de-emphasize our nation's emphasis on competition and instead improve the quality of all schools, be they public or private.  I don't think simply driving private schools out of business is going to help anyone.

You can't have quality schools if you have school segregation by income, which is what private schools essentially are.

Which is why I would like to replace school tuition with public funds, not the private schools themselves.

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TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially, that is what I'm proposing.  I don't want the private schools to cease from existence, but I would like them to operate without charging tuition.

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TNF, would your proposal prohibit charter schools? It seems to me that what Scott suggests would effectively require that all private schools become charter schools. That doesn't seem that problematic to me, although I would support specifying that all private schools must be operated as non-profit organizations. (This is our current policy with regard to higher education.)

Essentially, that is what I'm proposing.  I don't want the private schools to cease from existence, but I would like them to operate without charging tuition.

Forgive me, but I still don't understand the rationale behind having two school systems funded by the state. It's a waste of taxpayer resources when we could simply have one well financed public school system.

The bill would effectively convert private schools into public ones, and the administrative figures/teachers/staff would be retained.  This really isn't that complicated.

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Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

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Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

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Then why not operate them like normal public schools?

They would run like normal public schools.

Then why retain private ownership of them?

Because the government shouldn't just remove people from their jobs as long as they're complying with the law?

Their job of doing what exactly? Making money without actually doing anything other than presiding over a publicly funded private school?

Just because a school's publicly funded doesn't mean it doesn't have/need administrative oversight.

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So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing without relinquishing sponsorship.

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So I take it that no one's on board with giving every student the opportunity to attend any school they want, regardless if the school is public or private?  Because if we can't agree on something as basic as that, the bill is practically DOA, and I will scrap the entire thing.

I would be on board with creating a vouncher system for students in poorly performing impoverished areas to do that, but I can't support fully funding all private schools like this.

Then it appears we are at an impasse.

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That is essentially the point.  In Finland, all schools are the same structure-wise, and the outcomes are mostly similar, but parents still have a choice in which schools their children go to.  Things like competition and vouchers simply aren't part of the conversation in that country, and they haven't needed either of them to get where they are today.

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Amendment:

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I'm about ready to cut this thing real short and just author a bill reforming standardized tests, as that is the only thing I feel we might reach some agreement on at this point.

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I concur with Yankee. Currently, it's way too hard to get rid of incompetant teachers. They are a big problem in the system, yet, unions protect very much.

Should not teachers have a guaranteed position, provided they are doing their jobs and not breaking the law after a certain amount of time?

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, but if the unions are protecting incompetent teachers, don't you think that's a problem that should be addressed?

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I concur with Yankee. Currently, it's way too hard to get rid of incompetant teachers. They are a big problem in the system, yet, unions protect very much.

Should not teachers have a guaranteed position, provided they are doing their jobs and not breaking the law after a certain amount of time?

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, but if the unions are protecting incompetent teachers, don't you think that's a problem that should be addressed?

Are the unions protecting incompetent teachers?

Well, as Max said, unions are making it hard for schools to replace incompetent teachers.  That practice shouldn't continue.

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I concur with Yankee. Currently, it's way too hard to get rid of incompetant teachers. They are a big problem in the system, yet, unions protect very much.

Should not teachers have a guaranteed position, provided they are doing their jobs and not breaking the law after a certain amount of time?

I don't think anyone here disagrees with that, but if the unions are protecting incompetent teachers, don't you think that's a problem that should be addressed?

Are the unions protecting incompetent teachers?

Well, as Max said, unions are making it hard for schools to replace incompetent teachers.  That practice shouldn't continue.

Do you have any proof to back this accusation up?

http://blog.timesunion.com/schools/firing-bad-teachers-nearly-impossible/1459/

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Nay.

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Nay.

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Amendment proposal


SECTION 7. STANDARDIZED TEST REFORM

All ties between federal funding and federally mandated standardized tests are hereby repealed. Federally mandated standardized tests shall remain in place for the sole purpose of tracking progress and success in education policy as administered by the Department of Education and Secretary of Internal Affairs. Standardized test results may be submitted to universities for the purpose of college admissions.

Very unfriendly.  My proposal doesn't eliminate standardized tests, but merely reduces them and gives the regions a chance to design their own.  If we're actually going to keep testing students year after year, then there's really no need for this bill at all.  We also should keep in mind that colleges are beginning to see standardized tests as a poor way of measuring student ability.  I know you don't like it when I bring up the Finnish model, but the fact is that students in that country haven't needed standardized tests.  They certainly don't prevent them from being successful after high school.  If you think we should test so students can "learn how to test better over time," then you are completely out of step with the goals outlined by the bill.

I've seen a lot of bad ideas proposed for this bill, but that has got to be the worst of them all.

Amendment proposal

SECTION 6. SCHOOL ENVIRONMENT

1.   All schools below college shall be required to be open to students for at least 190 days per year for at least 7.5 hours a day for no less than eleven years.  One hour each day must be reserved to study hall periods and recess, which shall be required in all schools.

2.   All students across all regions will be entitled to health care (including mental health) and daily lunch.  If a student is of an income level below $25,000, their lunches shall be at no cost.

3. The School Lunch Act (FL 31-20) is hereby repealed.

Friendly.

Amendment proposal

SECTION 8. MISCELLANEOUS

The School Standards Reform Act of 2009 is amended as follows:

Section 3: Middle School Reforms

    All public middle schools must offer at least one foreign language program. Enrollment in said program may be optional, as dictated by regional and district law.
    All students in grades 6 through 8 shall be required to study science, English, history, physical education, and mathematics for all of their three years in said grades. All public middle schools must offer said subjects for all three grades.

Section 4: High School Reforms

    All public high school students must complete, between 9th and 12th grade, at least four courses in mathematics, four courses in English, three courses in a single foreign language, three courses in the social sciences, one course in Atlasian history, two courses in physical education, three courses of science with at least three of said courses lab intensive, in addition to four elective courses.
    All public high schools must offer classes on mathematics, chemistry, biology, physics, English, Atlasian history, world history, physical education, and at least (but not limited to) two different foreign languages sufficient in number to allow students to complete the above requirements.
    All public high schools with a student body greater than 400 that offer at least 8 advanced courses (Advanced Placement, Running Start and International Baccalaureate are acceptable) shall receive up to 60% the total cost of such programs split evenly between the governing region and federal government.

SECTION 9. FUNDING

TBD

SECTION 10. IMPLEMENTATION

This law shall go into effect at the start of the 2015 school year.

Friendly.