SCOTUS overturns Roe megathread (pg 53 - confirmed)

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Abortion should not be left up to legislators. Kansas was able to vote on the matter and the people chose to keep abortion practices in tact. What the majority of American people want is far more valuable than what a bunch of disinterested political folks try to force us to want. But we live in a patriarchal society where what is good for the woman is not necessarily the path we follow, and that's how the cookie crumbles.

I'm not sure this is so clear cut.  More women than men have voted in every presidential election since 1984, and women outvote men most dramatically in the Deep South (most Southern states had 55%+ female electorates in 2020).  That timeframe covers the appointments of the entire current SCOTUS.  To whatever extent current policy doesn't reflect what women want, it's a huge stretch to blame men at this point.  This goes doubly so for state-level policy in the South.

Voting is not quite the same as women being treated "differently" than men in society. It's still a male dominated society we're living in, although it's changing very slowly. How many presidents have been female? How many CEOs are female? How many representatives in congress are female? Women have a higher instance of living in poverty than men, especially single mothers. It's not so much about blaming men as it is that we are still living in a male dominated society because that's how it's always been.

However, this isn't about a male CEO setting sexist corporate policy, this is about government policy, which a majority of voters reasonably control over the 40 year long run.  Also, while corporate senior management hasn't shifted much, women are the majority at every level of higher education now, including doctors and lawyers.  In some educational settings, it's a 60/40 majority or higher.  Even the corporate senior management thing could be addressed through Scandinavian style mandates if you have a clear majority of votes  and make it a top priority.

A more likely scenario is the male CEO's wife is voting to maximize his influence/opportunity/income rather than her own and cumulatively there's enough of this going on to mostly maintain the status quo (~20% of married mothers don't formally work).  But it's still a choice those women are making as to what their best interests are, right?

That's the ideal, but we don't live in an ideal world. Life is complicated and people are influenced by social programming and also social events that are beyond their control.

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https://twitter.com/greenhousenyt/status/1558541651592859649

This will hopefully drive up Dane County turnout.

Enough to save Evers, sure, but he's still going to have this legislature to deal with because it's about as gerrymandered as apartheid South Africa.

Wisconsin is a Jim Crow state at least on this issue.

All my relatives were from Wisconsin. Glad my mother and father migrated to California, the land of the free. They knew that something was wrong with staying in WI. That state certainly did not have the opportunities that California offered. Not to mention the weather in San Diego was ideal. Also not to mention that California does not live in the backwoods of time like WI and all those other small-minded states.

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https://twitter.com/mjs_DC/status/1559541026695544833

Is this for real? What kind of parent is she going to be? Who comes up with this stuff?

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I am reminded of the mass shootings that have been in the news more and more lately. Stories of women having traumatic and/or near death experiences because of not being able to get an abortion are going to increase more and more until a volcano goes off. Something is going to explode because this healthcare debacle just can't go on like this. Women deserve better than to be forced to go through health nightmares because of some arbitrary political legislation.

So sure, look to the voters for increased participation by women. They have a vested interest in the outcome of elections more now than ever before.

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ABORTION IS ILLEGAL IN TENNESSEE!!!!

So what happens if your daughter needs an abortion. Or your wife. Or your sister. Or someone you know? Are you going to tell them that God said they can't have one? Or is it some arbitrary political legislation that is in play here?

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I thought this was an interesting article about the impact the overturn of Roe v Wade is having across the country.

A new analysis this week by a Democratic data firm found that several states are seeing a surge in female voter registration. The firm, TargetSmart Insights, found that woman had outregistered men by significant margins in states including Michigan, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, all of which will see competitive statewide races in November.

Some liberal strategists argue that voters are not buying the media framing of the issues in the midterms, in which topics such as inflation are “kitchen table issues,” whereas abortion is a more abstract matter of “values.”

“Abortion rights are everyday issues facing millions of Americans,” said Democratic operative Abigail Collazo. “Republicans are hoping people don’t know that. But people do know that. They know what issues impact them.”

“The stakes are no longer hypothetical,” said Lau. “The issue of abortion, and reproductive rights and reproductive freedom, is being put at the forefront of campaigns across the country.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/3614692-the-memo-new-york-provides-latest-example-of-abortions-impact/

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Well, it seems as though the backlash from the overturn of Roe has been picking up speed. Republicans are getting a first-hand glimpse of the future, which is that their stance against women having freedom to choose their own health practices isn't very popular, and will not be sustainable for the majority of citizens.

Politicians being part of the decision-making process of who gets to have an abortion or not is major overreach. I can understand why the religions have a vested interest in the subject of abortion. But who is actually in charge of making the decisions about it? Is a woman in charge of her body, or is society in charge of when living fetuses are declared people, thus putting the woman's interest in her own health and safety secondary to society's wishes?

Right now, the Republicans and the Religious Right are on the wrong side of popular opinion and I fail to see how they can sustain their party and their beliefs in the face of these impossible odds. Unless, of course they start looking at reality and see how their misguided thinking harms a lot of people and they take steps to change their ways. (Yeah, right.)

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I read somewhere that some Pub candidates are taking down items regarding abortion from their primary campaigns. One of the joys of internet campaigns is that you can make stuff disappear.

That's just sleazy and dishonest.

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This clinic is offering discreet abortions to Americans just across the border in Tijuana. In May their American patients made up 25% of their business. Now it's 50%. The cost is much lower as well, $200-$400 as opposed to $600-$1,000 in the US.

https://www.npr.org/2022/08/31/1119886629/abortion-mexico-roe-wade-ban-texas-supreme-court-border-tijuana

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More on the Michigan ruling.

"A law denying safe, routine medical care not only denies women of their ability to control their bodies and their lives — it denies them of their dignity," Gleicher of the Court of Claims wrote. "Michigan's Constitution forbids this violation of due process."

In the case handled by Gleicher, the 1931 law makes it a crime to perform abortions unless the life of the mother is in danger.

The judge found the law "compels motherhood" and prevents a woman from determining the "shape of her present and future life."

The law "forces a pregnant woman to forgo her reproductive choices and to instead serve as `an involuntary vessel entitled to no more respect than other forms of collectively owned property,'" Gleicher wrote, quoting constitutional scholar Laurence Tribe.

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/07/1121600908/michigan-abortion-law-struck-down

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1. The Michigan Supreme Court has put the pro-choice amendment on the ballot, overruling the 2R/2D commission that deadlocked.  Importantly for any future election disputes where this board deadlocks, it was a 5/2 decision, with 4 of the 5 having terms that extend beyond the 2024 election. 

2. The total abortion ban failed in South Carolina because a Republican state senator filibustered it.  They had a majority but not enough votes to end the filibuster.  They are instead passing updates to the 6 week ban that they hope will end the judicial challenge to it.  The limit would be extended to 12 weeks in cases of rape or incest.  This is quite surprising to me since the total ban still passed in Indiana right after the Kansas vote.   

This is important because a dialogue has been opened up, and negotiations are taking place. At least they are addressing the issue of abortion a tad more sanely. No, not enough but the seeds are taking place.

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I think Lindsay Graham is out of touch, and also wishy-washy. He doesn't appear to be a deep thinker or a long-term thinker. I'm starting to pity him.

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Total bans is a losing position. It won't last. Neither will legislation that is not good enough for women and their health care needs. This country is not going stupidly backwards without a fight.

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Male politicians are pushing for women who get abortions to receive prison time, that's what this article is about. Men still need to feel that they control women, that's the bottom line here. And I say, good luck with that. It's a losing battle. Nevertheless, women's lives, and doctor's lives are being egregiously affected by these misogynists. And it's a shame.

A businessman turned state representative from rural Oil City, Louisiana, and a Baptist pastor banded together earlier this year on a radical mission.

They were adamant that a woman who receives an abortion should receive the same criminal consequences as one who drowns her baby.

Under a bill they promoted, pregnant people could face murder charges even if they were raped or doctors determined the procedure was needed to save their own life. Doctors who attempted to help patients conceive through in-vitro fertilization, a fertility treatment used by millions of Americans, could also be locked up for destroying embryos, and certain contraception such as Plan B would be banned.

“The taking of a life is murder, and it is illegal,” state Rep. Danny McCormick told a committee of state lawmakers who considered the bill in May, right after the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe v. Wade was leaked.

“No compromises, no more waiting,” Brian Gunter, the pastor who suggested McCormick be the one to introduce the legislation, told the committee.

An overwhelming majority of Americans said in a Pew Research Center poll they don’t believe men should have a greater say on abortion policy, but that is what is happening. Experts told CNN that the male dominance fits within the anti-abortion movement’s current framing as being focused on “fetal personhood” and “fetal rights” as opposed to maternal rights.

Eric Swank, an Arizona State University professor who has studied gender differences in anti-abortion activists, said his research found that while men aren’t necessarily more likely to consider themselves to be “pro-life” than women, they “are more willing to take the adamant stance of no abortion under any conditions.”

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/20/politics/abortion-bans-murder-charges-invs/index.html

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https://twitter.com/brahmresnik/status/1573447684152651776

I believe the law allows abortions only to save the life of the mother, no rape or incest exceptions (although I'm not 100% certain of this).

LMAO it hit my front page news and I’m not even from there. Nice work Arizona GOP.

Still better than Colorado's all-you-care to abort policies on demand with no restrictions.

Forcing 10-year-old rape victims to give birth to their uncle's baby to own the libs.

At least it's not "killing babies."

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So does this mean that all the people who support a ban on abortion practice the rhythm method of birth control? But isn't that also a method of birth control and thus, should be banned? Should all the women (and girls) just have as many babies as pop out of them after having sex? Maybe we should ban sex. No more sexually transmitted diseases. No more abortion worries. Sounds like the only way to stop all the controversy.

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So does this mean that all the people who support a ban on abortion practice the rhythm method of birth control? But isn't that also a method of birth control and thus, should be banned? Should all the women (and girls) just have as many babies as pop out of them after having sex. Maybe we should ban sex. No more sexually transmitted diseases. No more abortion worries. Sounds like the only way to stop all the controversy.

They probably want to ban sex outside of marriage.

But let's be honest. How many of the people who support banning abortion and banning birth control don't have sex outside of marriage? I mean, come on. Are they so righteous that they don't have sex outside of marriage? I doubt it. More like they are hypocrites.

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Being facetious here but just stop having sex and problem solved. I wonder if the righteous ones and the religious ones and the irrational thinkers would like that...and I'm talking about men who think this way, and the misguided females as well. Cut down on the population and also the social services needed for low income folks.

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Looks like my question has been partially answered.
https://amp.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/national/article266756371.html

Yup. Who cares about real genuine lives. They just are not as important as an ideal.

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Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

Wow! Good stuff. People caring about other people.

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Unconventional stuff:

https://twitter.com/axios/status/1580561194532098050

Wow! Good stuff. People caring about other people.

It really shouldn't have to come to this though.

No, but we have to deal with reality.

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I guess people have been saturated with the abortion issue, and now it's tanking in the polls. The economy continues to astound us all, the continual rising of prices....

I just read that people are thinking the Republicans are looking good now, maybe they will have a blowout election and gain the house and senate. Well, okay, whatever happens. All I can say is that I am so glad I am not worried about abortions and pregnancies and kids and all that at my age. But I do feel sorry for the women and girls in our society presently who are concerned.

I also read that some people are electing to have tube removal and guys are getting vasectomies. They don't want to deal with pregnancy or the complications of it in this new anti-choice climate.

I'm totally not on board with just about anything the Republicans try to do, so if there is a blowout, I am going back into hibernation until people start having their freedoms back and aren't ruled by a bunch of loonies and conspiracy theorists and election fraudists.

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/10/18/illegal-abortion-pill-network/

I got through some of it, it was quite long. But very interesting. I am reminded of the prohibition days of our history and no matter how much they tried to ban alcohol, all they did was create an "alternative" network of delivery for the product. And I'm sure many people died in the process.

And then they found out that you can't regulate something as fundamental as drinking alcohol. People will do it no matter what. Same with abortions. Women will have them no matter what. We can do it the safer way, or the prohibition way -- which we know doesn't work. But some people in our society have the need to reinvent the wheel, and the rest of us are stuck in their warped thinking until we find a way out.

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So the vote to keep abortion legal was a winner in the elections. Nobody wants to have their freedoms taken away from them, whether it's the right to have an abortion, a right to own a gun or whatever. Any politician who wants to criminalize or restrict access to abortion is an automatic loser in the general scheme of things. The majority of people don't vote for losers.

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I hope no one on the left thinks the abortion debate is close to over. This is only just the beginning. To use a WWII analogy, we're still in 1939.

Not only is it not over but it hasn't even really begun. Both sides are talking past each other and never the twain shall meet for years and years to come. For one reason, it's because the church has a big influence on people's lives and it's hard to go against their influence. I've had plenty of arguments and discussions with these types and all they do is get all emotional and talk about "killing babies." They can't get past that point.

So there is no discussion going on, only emotionalism.