Opinion of Bush v. Gore (the U.S. Supreme Court decision)? (user search)
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  Opinion of Bush v. Gore (the U.S. Supreme Court decision)? (search mode)
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Question: Opinion of Bush v. Gore (the U.S. Supreme Court decision)?
#1
It was an excellent decision
 
#2
It was a decent, but imperfect, decision
 
#3
It was an OK decision
 
#4
It was a bad decision
 
#5
It was an extremely awful decision
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 82

Author Topic: Opinion of Bush v. Gore (the U.S. Supreme Court decision)?  (Read 1942 times)
Californiadreaming
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Posts: 678
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« on: July 29, 2016, 06:45:18 PM »

As for me, I voted for Option 2: "It was a defect, but imperfect, decision." As for my rationale for this position of mine, here goes:

I support the first part (the 7-2 vote) of Bush v. Gore that stated that the recount that was ordered by the Florida Supreme Court was unconstitutional. Indeed, it certainly doesn't seem very fair to consider a ballot a valid vote in one county but not in another county or even in one precinct but not in another precinct. Plus, it's certainly not fair to recount only the undervotes and not the overvotes as well. (Also, Yes, if possible, I would almost certainly support applying the equal protection principles of Bush v. Gore to all U.S. elections.) Indeed, if an election is right down to the wire, then surely it makes sense to have both a uniform standard for recounting ballots and to recount all of the ballots (as in, both the undervotes and the overvotes) that were thrown out by the vote-counting machines in Florida.

As for the second part of the Bush v. Gore (the 5-4 vote), here is what I have to say about this:

-If the alternative to completely stopping the recounting was a manual recount of only the undervotes plus the overvotes (using a uniform standard, obviously), then completely stopping the recounting (as in, what the five conservative U.S. Supreme Court Justices essentially did) was probably the superior option.
-However, I think that the best option in regards to this would have been to do a manual recount of all the undervotes, overvotes, and absentee ballots (using uniform standards, obviously). After all, there was certainly unequal treatment of the absentee ballots in Florida in 2000 (indeed, please see here: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/07/15/politics/15BALL.html?pagewanted=all ) and thus it would have certainly been extremely unfair to impose uniform standards for the ballots that the vote-counting machines in Florida threw out but not for the absentee ballots throughout all of Florida. After all, in Florida in 2000, every vote could have potentially been decisive given the extremely narrow margin there.

Anyway, any thoughts on what I wrote here? Smiley
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
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« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2016, 06:47:49 PM »

Also, Yes, Al Gore and his lawyers certainly appear to have made a mistake (albeit almost certainly not a decisive mistake) by not mentioning the unequal treatment of Florida absentee ballots to the U.S. Supreme Court. Sad Plus, the various U.S. Supreme Court Justices--especially the liberal ones--appear to have made a mistake in not inquiring themselves (in court, during the Bush v. Gore U.S. Supreme Court hearings) about whether or not there was equal treatment of absentee ballots throughout all of Florida in 2000. Sad
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
United States


« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2016, 10:26:53 PM »
« Edited: July 30, 2016, 10:30:49 PM by Californiadreaming »

Having read the full court opinion, and the oral argument transcript, and a 300 page book on the subject, I believe the outcome was the most correct opinion in light of the unique circumstances.

Mostly agreed. Frankly, the only thing about Bush v. Gore that I am critical of is that it completely stopped the recounting process. Indeed, ideally the best thing to do would have probably been for the U.S. Supreme Court to not only order the Florida Supreme Court to implement a new manual recount of overvotes and undervotes using a uniform standard, but also to have the U.S. Supreme Court demand that the Florida Supreme Court likewise impose uniform standards (indeed, these uniform standards could have been based on the ruling that Judge Lacey Collier made in regards to absentee ballots several days earlier) for counting all of the absentee ballots in Florida.

Indeed, it certainly wouldn't be very fair to impose uniform standards for ballots that Florida's voting machines threw out but not for absentee ballots. However, unfortunately neither Al Gore nor any of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices appear to have raised the issue of equal protection for Florida's absentee ballots during the hearings for Bush v. Gore. Sad Thus, based on the alternative that the four liberal U.S. Supreme Court Justices actually offered, completely stopping the recounting process was probably the better move.

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Yes; correct! Indeed, there is absolutely no compelling state interest in treating similar ballots differently when it comes to vote-counting.

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Didn't only three U.S. Supreme Court Justices make this argument, though? Indeed, I certainly don't remember any mention of Article II of the U.S. Constitution in the (main) Bush v. Gore ruling.

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Yes, this appears to be correct.

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Completely agreed. Indeed, the fact that Al Gore would have probably made a better U.S. President than George W. Bush would have certainly doesn't result in me looking at Bush v. Gore through partisan-colored glasses.

Also, though, out of curiosity--had U.S. Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy not only voted the other way but also raised the question of equal protection for all of Florida's absentee ballots and thus the Florida Supreme Court would have been ordered to launch a new manual recount with uniform standards for undervotes, overvotes, and absentee ballots, this manual recount would have needed to end sometime before January 6, 2001, correct? Indeed, even if this manual recount wouldn't have been completed by the time that the Electoral College would have met on December 18, 2000 (and it probably wouldn't have been completed by this point in time if the slow manual recounting in four Democratic Florida counties in 2000 are any indication of the speed at which this new manual recount would have advanced), Florida's Supreme Court could have ordered that a slate of Gore electors be sent as late as January 5, 2001, correct? In such a scenario, the U.S. Congress could approve this slate of Gore electors if necessary (as in, if Al Gore would have actually won this new manual recount in Florida) while rejecting the slate of Bush electors that the Florida Legislature has previously sent, correct?

In addition to this, though, while this certainly doesn't affect the actual merits of the Bush v. Gore decision at all, if you are curious as to what exactly the outcome of a new manual recount in Florida that would have counted undervotes, overvotes, and absentee ballots using uniform standards would have looked like, I suspect--but certainly cannot prove--that Al Gore would have won this manual recount. Basically, while the 2001 media recount had Al Gore winning by about 100 votes (plus/minus several dozen votes depending on the specific standard involved), the 2001 media recount doesn't appear to have taken absentee ballots into account. Indeed, on December 8, 2001, Judge Lacey Collier granted Bush a partial victory by mandating seven Florida counties (Bush apparently didn't ask for the other Florida counties--so much for equal protection when it comes to absentee ballots! Sad) to accept some of the absentee ballots that they previously rejected. This ruling was predicted (by the media) to result in an additional gain of about 100 votes for Bush--which in turn would have made Bush v. Gore about even in the Florida count (after all, 100 votes - 100 votes = 0 votes). However, now we have to apply equal protection for all of Florida's absentee ballots. Indeed, since Florida's unequal treatment of absentee ballots likely benefited Bush (as my link in my original post here indicates), imposing uniform standards for Florida's absentee ballots would have probably favored Al Gore and would have probably pushed Al Gore over the top in Florida in 2000 (as in, would have probably caused Al Gore to win Florida in 2000).
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
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« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2016, 10:29:14 PM »

Care to please elaborate on this?
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
United States


« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2016, 12:28:54 PM »
« Edited: July 31, 2016, 12:32:32 PM by Californiadreaming »


Not really, tbh. I simply care about democracy and don't think blatantly inaccurate counts should be left standing.
Actually, I agree with you in regards to this. However, if you wanted the most accurate count, then uniform standards should have also been extended to Florida's absentee ballots. Unfortunately, though, neither Al Gore (and his lawyers) nor any of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices actually raised the issue of equal protection for Florida's absentee ballots. Sad
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
United States


« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2016, 12:30:53 PM »

Horrible decision because it gave Dubya the presidency.
The fact that this decision gave Dubya the Presidency doesn't necessarily mean that this decision itself was based on its merits, though.

Also, though, for the record, I would like to point out that, without imposing uniform standards to Florida's absentee ballots, I am unsure that Al Gore would have won Florida even if the U.S. Supreme Court would have ruled the other way in regards to launching a new manual recount in Florida.
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Californiadreaming
Jr. Member
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Posts: 678
United States


« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2016, 01:44:09 PM »


Not really, tbh. I simply care about democracy and don't think blatantly inaccurate counts should be left standing.
Actually, I agree with you in regards to this. However, if you wanted the most accurate count, then uniform standards should have also been extended to Florida's absentee ballots. Unfortunately, though, neither Al Gore (and his lawyers) nor any of the U.S. Supreme Court Justices actually raised the issue of equal protection for Florida's absentee ballots. Sad
Plus, if you care so much about democracy, why support the unconstitutional recount that the Florida Supreme Court ordered?
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