Indictment-O-Rama Megathread: Mueller indicts 13 Russians

[Virginiá]

Request this be stickied since we all know it's going to be the hot topic for the next few months at least.

It would be nice to have a general purpose Russia scandal sticky, but preferably a thread whose first 5 pages isn't completely polluted by troll/spam posts.

[Virginiá]

All I can say is... poor Ed Gillespie lol

Don't worry, I'm sure Ed is already hard at work creating his next ads to even things out:

"Northam phone contact list leaked; Six rapists on speed dial"

"Sweatshop operator busted in Bangladesh, tells authorities Ralph Northam forced him to employ children. Keep Ralph away from children and vote Gillespie."

[Virginiá]

KingSweden, would you like to do the honors with the Nuclear Elmo?

I think we've already had one or two Elmos. They are buried in the first 4 - 5 pages, with all the cat spam.

[Virginiá]

They must be expecting pardons.

Probably. I guess it depends on how long Manafort/others would be willing to hold out, and whether Trump will give the pardon(s) right away or maybe as part of the usual end-of-presidency pardon storm.

[Virginiá]

Pres should "grant blanket pardon for everybody involved in everything...He’s got to shut this thing down, he’s just got to" - Pat Robertson

Wasn't that the gist of the recent op-ed on the WSJ? I couldn't see it due to paywall, but that I believe was the summary Politico provided.

That is basically what it has come to. It doesn't even seem to matter to them if crimes have or haven't been committed, which is a bit ironic coming from the self-purported "law and order" party. Now conservatives are moving to the position of "just shut it down and issue blanket pardons, this investigation is dragging on too much." I'm sorry, but what, are Republican administrations just immune from the criminal justice system now? No one is supposed to like an investigation, particularly when it is into your "team." The idea of a fair system (or even close to that) is you just have to put up with it, because criminal investigations are never convenient, particularly when you are a bunch of partisan hacks with a lot invested in the outcome.

And to think, the fate of this investigation lies in the tiny hands of the POTUS, aka a likely target of the investigation who does little else but watch Fox news all day.

[Virginiá]

Well as Hannity himself has said before (iirc), he isn't a journalist. He's basically paid to be a super partisan hack on TV. I doubt even he believes half the stuff he says.

In regards to Fox News, they are more like an arm of the Republican Party, regardless of what image of themselves they try to portray. If they were just reporting news, they wouldn't have their people running defense for the GOP like this. The way most of them have handled all things Russiagate is almost exactly how you'd expect the RNC spokespeople to work.

[Virginiá]

Bannon is being reckless.

Mueller and his team will bury them if they go this route.

If Trump pushed to get Mueller's funding cut, couldn't that beef up the obstruction of justice case?

[Virginiá]

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Sessions is probably getting indicted

This would be orgasmic.

I don't know. Honestly, it might be best if Mueller saved that for last. Sessions being Attorney General is what is keeping Rod Rosenstein as acting AG in regards to oversight of the special counsel investigation. Trump actually wants Sessions out, because then he could fill that office with a lackey who then might clamp down on the investigation. He doesn't have to fire Mueller, but he could say no to certain indictments, maybe restrict funding, and god knows what else. That is a much more low-key way to hinder the investigation.

In fact, it reminds me of Lt. Marimow from The Wire, dubbed "the unit killer," who was brought in to essentially "supervise" the unit into a quiet extinction on account of them investigating politicians:

http://thewire.wikia.com/wiki/Charles_Marimow

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Although, I guess given how high-profile Mueller's investigation is, a new AG might not be able to get away with that. It might even fall into obstruction if a link to Trump can be made.

[Virginiá]

I wonder when Trump and the GOP will begin their push to fire Mueller or somehow seriously restrict his investigation.

They’re sweating like dogs.

Err, I doubt that. If we were talking about your average Republican president, I could believe that, but with Trump, I honestly do not think he can restrain himself. Once the investigation gets closer to his family or maybe some other people he considers important and if they get slapped with their own indictments, it's very easy to see Trump firing Mueller and/or issuing pardons. I mean come on, this is Donald Trump, Grumps. He has spent the past 2+ (or his lifetime?) years breaking rules. I really doubt he can restrain himself, especially when he knows he can insulate himself from real repercussions rather easily.

As for Republicans, or political parties in general, never underestimate their willingness to put party above all else, even if it means shutting down a legitimate investigation just to try and limit damage in the next election(s).

[Virginiá]

It's a bit funny how this stuff doesn't even really rate anymore. Atlas was blowing up over similar kinds of revelations months ago, but more hints of Trump & Co's corrupt shenanigans is just kind of accepted now.

I feel like any day now, CNN could light up with news and video evidence of Trump and his sons burying someone they actually shot on 5th avenue, and after they yell Fake News! at the camera, the collective response would be basically be:

[Virginiá]

Congrats to President Pence and Vice President Haley.

I doubt mother would let him pick a female VP.

lmao TG

He could bring in his wife as a full time assistant to the president, so she may be there to chaperone every meeting

[Virginiá]

https://twitter.com/markberman/status/942582270216556546

Trump is apparently targeting Rosenstein. Important to remember that firing him and replacing him with a WH lackey would allow the President to indirectly stonewall the investigation -- with far less backlash than a Mueller firing would cause.

Firing Rosenstien = firing Mueller to the public. The end result would be Rosenstein's replacement firing Mueller (I don't think the replacement can stonewall Mueller in any way short of firing him).

I read somewhere that (since Mueller reports to Rosenstein) a new Deputy AG could narrow the scope of the investigation or otherwise stop Mueller from doing things that would incriminate Trump, although some other stuff I've read since you posted this indicates otherwise. Just forget that I said anything

Don't disagree that this would be terrible, and would cause at least some degree of backlash.

You're definitely not wrong, but on the other hand, Trump has been complaining about Sessions and Rosenstein for a long time now. I do think it's possible Trump fires him to exert more control over the investigation, but it's not clear when. It could be months from now, or never. For us lowly citizens, what reports we have of Trump's thoughts on Sessions et al doesn't indicate he is any more likely than he was a month after Mueller was appointed.

I think if he does do it, it'll probably be a rage-response to Mueller indicting Kushner and/or one of his other devil spawn. I'm just assuming Mueller knows this and is probably saving those for last (if at all).

[Virginiá]

Democrats are going to bury this son of a bitch when they take control next year.

You overestimate their spines (and, I fear, underestimate their ability to screw up a sure thing).

I mean, there is at the very least an electoral incentive to investigate every nook and cranny of the Trump administration. Further, the base would demand it. Trump lit a nuclear-hot fire under the left and Democrats simply can't avoid that.

Plus, the energy they have invested in the Russia investigation, the GOP sabotaging the House investigation and the memory of Republicans mercilessly investigating Benghazi and emails for years would indicate that Democrats will show no mercy.

[Virginiá]

Great. So we get to listen to Lawrence O'Donnell try to build up this story for half an hour before we actually hear it. Remember when Maddow got Trump's old tax returns and played it up for like 20 minutes before actually telling us how little there was in them? Now eliminate Maddow's professionalism and non-hackishness and double the time frame.

If it's worth anything....O Donnell canceled his winter vacation to report this. Maybe at long last we finally get the piss tape

Not a problem for The Donald. If it's the piss tape, Trump will just lob missiles into some random country and shift the news cycle!

[Virginiá]

     I also have the sense that I am missing something here. I turned on MSNBC at the appointed hour and they are talking about the surprise interview he gave the NY Times. He shouldn't be giving surprise interviews without telling his staff or saying the things he said in this one, but it hardly seems like a "bombshell".

I've become pretty skeptical of when someone says a bombshell is about to hit. Sometimes it actually does deliver, but usually it seems like it's either not a bombshell or literally nothing at all.

[Virginiá]

Would any of the regular Trump defenders care to present a case that Trump has not committed obstruction of justice?

Honestly, at this rate, it seems like his supporters are eventually going to shift from "not obstruction" to "technically obstruction but not a good enough reason to charge or impeach him."

[Virginiá]

The Republicans are fully committed to covering for Trump so if the House doesn't flip during the midterms, Trump will get away with everything

If only Richard Nixon had the pleasure of serving with the 115th Congress

[Virginiá]

If congressional Republicans prematurely close their Russian collusion investigations before the midterm elections this year, Democrats should reopen them the moment they take control of both houses of Congress, and redo those investigations the way they ought to have been done from the outset:

Republicans have given Democrats a pretty good argument in restarting everything with substantially more resources, so I'm guessing Democrats will do that. They aren't going to let this go easily. Also I wouldn't be surprised if investigations start popping up for all sorts of other issues, such as the numerous conflicts of interests surrounding Trump and his family/associates. This is why losing any chamber of Congress would be a huge blow to Trump. His inner circle and a handful of cabinet officials would probably spend most of the 2 years between the 2018 and 2020 elections testifying in front of Congress, and aside from whether any of those investigations uncovers criminal actions, it'll hurt Trump in the 2020 election.

[Virginiá]

Trump has done dozens of depositions, and never gotten snagged in them.

[Citation Needed]

http://www.latimes.com/politics/la-na-pol-trump-mueller-interview-20180111-story.html

I’m not disputing the fact that Trump has been deposed in many lawsuits. I’m disputing your unsubstantiated assertion that he’s somehow a pro at it.

Just dropping this here for those interested:

I've Watched Trump Testify Under Oath. It Isn't Pretty.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/view/articles/2018-01-25/i-ve-watched-trump-testify-under-oath-it-isn-t-pretty

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[Virginiá]

Dutch intelligence agency spied on Russian hacking group

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-netherlands-russia-cybercrime/dutch-intelligence-agency-spied-on-russian-hacking-group-media-idUSKBN1FE34W

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[Virginiá]

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/2018-state-of-the-union-address/state-donald-trump-he-thinks-it-couldn-t-be-better-n842501

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[Virginiá]

If Corallo is telling the truth, that is pretty much ballgame. Hope Hicks and President Trump obstructed justice.

Honestly, I don't think it will ever be ballgame or there will ever be a home run in this regard. It doesn't change the fact that DoJ policy states a sitting president can't be indicted, and impeachment+conviction is a political question that Congressional Republicans will likely never entertain.

I mean, look at it this way, Trump and the GOP have been blatantly running a huge smear campaign against Mueller's investigation while also drumming up memos and other things to justify removing Rosenstein so Mueller's criminal investigation can be sabotaged. This is all pretty much obstruction of justice, yet they are acting like it isn't because apparently when it comes to POTUS, anything is allowed.

I think we've pretty much passed the point where things actually matter. There is no integrity, dignity, shame or even a modicum amount of respect for the law anymore.

[Virginiá]

An article I posted a couple of weeks ago was saying that Mueller will try to finish his investigation well before the midterms so than nobody can accuse him of interfering with the election.

I wonder if that is even possible. That only leaves them 5 or 6 months to wrap everything up, depending on when exactly you perceive the midterm season to heat up. I think any bombshells / indictments from September onwards could influence the election, although if the last of it drops in early September, it's debatable that America would still be influenced heavily by it in November, that is, unless it's something huge like Trump being recommended for impeachment or being named an unindicted co-conspirator. I guess it is possible Mueller could wait until after the election if he wants to recommend impeachment, or has a big indictment to drop that cuts it close to the election.

It's also worth pointing out that what constitutes a "bombshell" (as in, becomes a media frenzy for a long period of time) has changed a lot since Mueller was appointed. America has grown a tolerance for the investigation and its leaks.

[Virginiá]

^ Good point. I guess things unfold relative to where the whole situation started out.

Although I wonder about two things:

1. It's possible some of the things we thought would hurt a presidency actually wouldn't hurt them that much - at least not long-term. It's just that we've never had such a spectacular test case like Donald Trump.

2. It's possible some of these 500 things have hurt Trump as much as it might another president (give or take), but that his approval rating doesn't show it because he's already hit bottom (technically right now he could go lower since he's having a small rebound) and it's very difficult to go past that.

I'd bet it is a combination of those and other factors. Obviously people have a lot less expectations of Trump, so he benefits from that when drama/scandals break.

[Virginiá]

Actually, hold on. After thinking about it some more, I have a different take on Trump's teflon.

Yes, he has set very low expectations based on who he is and how he has acted up to this point, but is it fair to say he's "gotten away with it"? I'd say absolutely not. He started his presidency with just a 45% approval, which would essentially be the highest he'll likely ever go. He then sunk like a rock to mid-high 30s and has stayed there, aside from a brief new year bump.

Meanwhile, upon winning election, he immediately inspired the biggest surge of activism on the left in generations, spurred a massive amount of recruitment and fundraising, and has lit a fire under the Democratic Party's butt that is not only threatening the GOP's control of the House and possibly the Senate, but also their unified control of oodles of states across the country. Even more, it might even be fair to say that 2020 is Democrats' election to lose, provided they nominate a good candidate. There is a decent chance Republicans find themselves washed out into the wilderness by 2021, just in time for Democrats to have an even hand in redistricting, setting up a competitive (or worse) House for the 2020s.

So yes, Trump does sort of get away with things that would hurt another presidency a lot, but he and the GOP have paid for it dearly. There is a very good chance that 10 years from now, the last thing people say about Republicans/Trump is that "he got a free pass on his outrageous behavior."