Study shows Prop 8 exit polls wrong about level of support amongst Blacks.

[Joe Republic]

The other point is where a gay activist is quoted as saying opposition to our rights, as if to make a statement of fact that marriage is their right.  Marriage is neither their right nor is it their place to be changing the definition of the institution of marriage.

LOL.  Whose "place" was it to redefine marriage in Western society to make it inappropriate for adults to marry off their little kids to somebody for financial gain?  It's amazing the justifications for opposing gay marriage that you guys make up so frequently.

[Joe Republic]

The other point is where a gay activist is quoted as saying opposition to our rights, as if to make a statement of fact that marriage is their right.  Marriage is neither their right nor is it their place to be changing the definition of the institution of marriage.

LOL.  Whose "place" was it to redefine marriage in Western society to make it inappropriate for adults to marry off their little kids to somebody for financial gain?  It's amazing the justifications for opposing gay marriage that you guys make up so frequently.

You ought to be ashamed of yourself for exploiting the issue of children being married off to someone for financial gain and using it as justification for gays to be allowed to marry one another. 

Anyone with any common sense should realize that exploiting children for the purpose of financial gain or for that matter exploiting children for any puirpose is completely deplorable and reprehensible and cannot under any circumstances be compared to the gay marriage issue.

Ha ha, congratulations for completely missing my point.  Would you like to try again?

[Joe Republic]

You seem to have a complete inability to appreciate or to comprehend what I have been saying.

Finally you understand how it feels for us.

Your arguments on this subject invariably resort to the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy, or various forms of circular logic.

To top it all, not once have you ever said why two gay people you've never met getting married would affect you in any way.

[Joe Republic]

I'd just like to know how the act of two people whom you've never met getting married could have any effect on your daily life.  I can't count the number of times I've asked it.

[Joe Republic]

Can you find the relevant quotes of Alcon calling you "bigoted" and "incredibly ignorant"?

[Joe Republic]

I'd press you to re-post them here, but it's just not worth it.

So, do you feel like answering my question at the top of this page?

[Joe Republic]

For Winfield's benefit:

I'd just like to know how the act of two people whom you've never met getting married could have any effect on your daily life.  I can't count the number of times I've asked it.

-----

Many lesbian couples have been married in these states, and many of these women want to have a baby, for her and her same sex partner to raise.  Are any of you willing to donate sperm with which a lesbian could be artificially inseminated in order to conceive a baby, so this woman and her same sex partner could have a child to raise together?

Provided that I know and/or trust the couple, then of course I would.  It'd give me great pleasure to make them happy.  That's what humanity is all about.

[Joe Republic]

So Winfield, do you feel like answering my question?

[Joe Republic]

Joe, you have asked a question about how two people of the same sex getting married to each other could have any effect on my daily life.

Clearly, it would have no direct effect on my life in the sense that I would not have to make any changes in my daily life in order to accommodate the fact that a gay couple got married.

Where the broader ramifications lie, Joe, are in society as a whole, in particular the negative impact that same sex marriage will have on children.

Consult some scientific studies to see what I am talking about.

I do not wish to become involved in another lengthy discussion about the societal impact of gay marriage.

Firstly, thank you for eventually answering my question.

Given that gay adoption is a separate issue to marriage, and we've already established that two gay people cannot naturally reproduce, how does gay marriage in and of itself affect children?

[Joe Republic]

Franzl, since you made such an issue of the lesbian/sperm donor issue with me, let me ask you, would you be willing to donate your sperm to a lesbian with which she could be artificially inseminated, so that she could have a baby, who would be raised by her and her same sex partner?

Even though I'm not Franzl, I'd like to answer this question anyway.  If the lesbian couple were friends of mine, or at the very least I could tell that they would be responsible parents, then yes I would.

[Joe Republic]

Joe, when I talk about the negative impact that same sex marriage will have on children, I am talking about children raised within the confines of a same sex relationship, not children generally.

But as I've already said, the raising of children within any kind of relationship is a separate issue from whether gay people should be allowed to marry.

I'll ask a slightly different question here to clarify my point:  Let's say that two gay people wish to marry, but have no intention of raising children (by however means).  How does this affect society?

With all due respect, not that I am evading the issue, however, in my reply, I did suggest that you consult some of the scientific studies in this matter, and also stated that I did not wish to become involved in another lengthy discussion about the societal impact of gay marriage.

There are some very interesting articles in this matter that you can Google or Bing.

I typed "effect of gay parents on children" into Google Scholar, and here are extracts from the first three studies it found:

• "To date, however, there is no evidence that the development of children with lesbian or gay parents is compromised in any significant respect relative to that among children of heterosexual parents in otherwise comparable circumstances."
  
  
• "The author's study found that adult-aged daughters of lesbian mothers did not significantly differ from adult daughters of heterosexual mothers on gender identity, gender role, sexual orientation, and social adjustment."
  
  
• "The results demonstrate no differences on any measures between the heterosexual and homosexual parents regarding parenting styles, emotional adjustment, and sexual orientation of the child(ren). In other words, the data fail to support the continuation of a bias against homosexual parents by any court."

[Joe Republic]

Here are two links to two excellent articles

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/ho0090.html

http://www.frc.org/get.cfm?i=IS04C02

At the risk of invoking the ad hominem fallacy, even the casual observer is going to have to take articles published by the Catholic Education Resource Center and the Family Research Council with more than just a pinch of salt.  At least the independent sources I provided (which again, were just the first three I stumbled on) do not have an overt agenda like those two conservative religious institutions.

In any case, Alcon covered the substantive critiques of your articles better than I could. 

Furthermore, despite the fact that you've said you'd prefer to evade this topic, I would really appreciate an answer to the question in my previous post.  It actually feels like we're making progress.

[Joe Republic]

Joe, the question you have asked (bolded) is an interesting one, and one that should be addressed.

Like I said in reply in a previous question from you, gay marriage does not affect me in my daily life.  This would, of course, apply to whether or not the couple were raising any children.

However, my answer brings us full circle.  In my view, Joe, marriage, defined as the union of one man one woman, is a fundamental element and a key cornerstone of society, and, also in my view, same sex marriage is one more erosion of that society.  The more that fundamental elements and key cornerstones of society are eroded, the weaker those societies become, over time. 

The fall of the mighty Roman Empire was caused, in part, by external invasions, yes, but, these were preceded by moral decay from within, thus weakening the ability of Rome to defend itself from its' conquerors.

Thank you for answering my question.

I agree that society is full of 'fundamental elements' and 'key cornerstones', and I also agree that marriage (or at least the stable, long-term relationship) is one of them.  But where we differ is on why the gender/sexuality of the two people in such a couple matters.

It seems that when the subject of raising children is removed from the equation entirely, your opposition to gay marriage boils down to the 'appeal to tradition' logical fallacy.  That is to say that you have assumed that the status quo was correct from the start, which may not necessarily be the case, and furthermore that previous justifications are still valid in the modern age.  Society has continuously adapted over the centuries to eventually become more open-minded, and has endured.