Islamic College Being Planned by US Scholars

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rejection of the gospel is not good

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

rejection of the gospel is not good

So true! I'm glad you've realized that Islam is the one true gospel.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

rejection of the gospel is not good

So true! I'm glad you've realized that Islam is the one true gospel.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

"This Quran guides to the best path, and brings good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have deserved a great recompense." (Quran, 17:9)

rec•om•pense
1 a: to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b: to pay for

Sorry, I don’t want the wages I have deserved:

Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

rejection of the gospel is not good

So true! I'm glad you've realized that Islam is the one true gospel.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

"This Quran guides to the best path, and brings good news to the believers who lead a righteous life, that they have deserved a great recompense." (Quran, 17:9)

rec•om•pense
1 a: to give something to by way of compensation (as for a service rendered or damage incurred) b: to pay for

Sorry, I don’t want the wages I have deserved:

Rom 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

So do you or don't you worship Jesus as your savior in exchange for eternal life and salvation in paradise?

Whatever gave you that idea?!

no, I worship Jesus NOT out of obligation as if I was offering him a bribe, but rather I worship him because he was gracious enough to open my eyes and allow me to believe and accept his death as payment of the obligation of my sins.  In allowing me the grace to believe, he also gave me his Holy Spirit.

So I worship Christ because I am totally awe struck by him.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Dragging this back on topic;

If an Islamic College is set up I don't have a problem with it. America is a free country and anyone can start a college! It may even be more educationally balanced than some of the Christian ones if a traditional Islamic educational teaching method is held to.

that doesn't make it "good".

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Dragging this back on topic;

If an Islamic College is set up I don't have a problem with it. America is a free country and anyone can start a college! It may even be more educationally balanced than some of the Christian ones if a traditional Islamic educational teaching method is held to.

that doesn't make it "good".

It's not a question of whether a religious centred college is 'good'.

yo, I didn't introduce the word into the thread, I was simply responding to the "Cool.  Good for them" crowd.

Is it 'good' that they have the freedom of religion?  yes. 

Is their religious choice 'good' for them?  no

Is their religious choice 'cool'?  Again, no. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Dragging this back on topic;

If an Islamic College is set up I don't have a problem with it. America is a free country and anyone can start a college! It may even be more educationally balanced than some of the Christian ones if a traditional Islamic educational teaching method is held to.

that doesn't make it "good".

It's not a question of whether a religious centred college is 'good'.

yo, I didn't introduce the word into the thread, I was simply responding to the "Cool.  Good for them" crowd.

Is it 'good' that they have the freedom of religion?  yes. 

Is their religious choice 'good' for them?  no

Is their religious choice 'cool'?  Again, no. 

But I'm not discussing the 'good for them' crowd; my opinion is based on whether it is justified to operate an independent religious college in the USA. Of which the answer is yes.

but that's a boring observation - it's not even being questioned.  (Is it? - I haven't read all of this thread).  Dibble and I were just trying to spike the punch and liven up the party.

Ever see the old Twilight Zone episode where a group of people who have been given immortality hadn't spoken to each other in years because they had run out of things to discuss?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Whatever gave you that idea?!

Your regular reminders to all of us that if we don't believe as you do that we'll burn in hell for all eternity, and if we do that we'll be rewarded.

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And because you think you'll get something out of it. Again, you're constantly reminding us about it. In fact, you once again reminded us earlier in the thread:

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

It's there in plain English - the reward for belief and worship is eternal life. It is your religion's recompense, making your entire rebuttal of my earlier post moot.

You're starting to sound like JSJ, equating faith with work.  But, as I have told you many times, I did not decide to believe in Christ, rather God made that decision for me:

John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Therefore, the "recompense" is not based on my effort but rather on God's mercy.

So, as has just been said, God gives faith: John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Or, to put it another way, faith is a gift from God: Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God"

Therefore, it is God rewarding his own gift of faith with the gift of salvation: John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day."

So, not only did God bless me with the gift of faith, but my gift of faith that I received from God is rewarded with yet another gift, even eternal life!  So, why wouldn't I worship such an awesome and gracious God who pours out gift after gift upon me?!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You're starting to sound like JSJ, equating faith with work.

Worship is a verb, is it not? Do you not make an effort to get up every Sunday morning and go to church? Do you not take time out of your day to pray? Wouldn't you have more time to do other things if you didn't feel the need to worship? Do you not spend energy preaching and fulfilling the commandments of the one you believe to be your lord?

Worship takes lots of effort and discipline, so in a sense it is a type of work.

you're getting faith and worship mixed up.  worship comes as a respone to the gift of faith.  it was the gift of faith that allowed me to view the glory of God.  As a result of seeing his glory, I worship out of awe.  Much like Rebekah's response to seeing Isaac:

Gen 24:64 "Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac, she lighted off the camel."

When her eyes were lifted up, she saw Isaac, and her response was to light off her camel.

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Awesome - God forces people to worship him and believe in them, while sending everyone else to eternal torment. How awesome and gracious.

Rebekah wasn't forced off her camel, rather she came down in response to seeing Isaac.  As always, you fault God instead of recognizing your own sin.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I don't know if I should laugh or cry at the fact jmfcst managed to turn this into a Bible-quote fest. I wonder if he'll ever do that with an argument about emo with me.

I would first have to know what "emo" means....unless you're referring to the Muppet.

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BTW, anyone notice this basically his argument:

jmfcst: The Bible says this *quotes*
John Dibble: Yeah, well I don't believe in the Bible.
jmfcst: Then you are a fool, look *quotes more Bible verses that say the Bible is correct*
John Dibble: *counter-quotes the Koran saying similar things*
jmfcst: That is incorrect, look *quotes the Bible again*

And jmfcst I'm not going to bother responding or even reading your post replying to this if it's just another mess of Bible quotes so you should probably not bother wasting your time.

you missed the point of the exchange...it had to do with the motivation to worship

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you're getting faith and worship mixed up.  worship comes as a respone to the gift of faith.  it was the gift of faith that allowed me to view the glory of God.  As a result of seeing his glory, I worship out of awe.

It's not that far of a leap - part of your faith involves commands to worship, does it not?

"13Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name." (Deuteronomy 6:13, KJV)

can't you at least quote a verse with the word "worship" in it?

In any case, you’ve again missed the point…the New Covenant was instituted, in part, so that true worship could take place, not the kind of worship that is done by command, but the type of worship that is done in awe and thanksgiving:

John 4:23-24 “Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."”

Phil 3:3 “For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus”

1Cor 14:25 “the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. So he will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, ‘God is really among you!’"

So, again, I reiterate, I worship as a result of being in awe of his glory, not as a result of a threat.  Read Heb 12:18-24, it explains the difference between the old testament worship out of fear, and the new testament worship out of awe.

(And, Dude, doesn’t it strike you as odd that you’re rejecting my stated motive for worship and are attempting to apply to me another motive for my own worship?)

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Uhm, no offense intended but that's not the greatest example in the world. That's like saying "I saw the refrigerator door was open, so I closed it". Unless there's some context I'm missing, it's not like she was compelled to get off here camel - it could very well have just been common courtesy.

Isaac is a prefiguration of Christ in this story, and Rebekah symbolizes the Church. I specifically picked this story because it is the perfect juxtaposition for you, Dibble– Rebekah could see Christ and her response was to lower herself, coming down off of her camel; but you can’t see, therefore you refuse to come down off your high horse and attempt to sit in judgment of God.
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Rebekah wasn't forced off her camel, rather she came down in response to seeing Isaac.  As always, you fault God instead of recognizing your own sin.

And how would you expect me to recognize it when I don't even believe in your particular concept of sin? You yourself admit that it was God who decided what you believe for you:

But, as I have told you many times, I did not decide to believe in Christ, rather God made that decision for me

By your own account, God decides who to reveal himself to and who to keep in the dark. Your very logic dictates that I am blind to these things because your deity has chosen to keep me that way.
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And…what’s your point?!  Do you believe God is not being fair, as if he owes you something?  If so, you should stop reading the Koran, for it is obviously deceiving you into believing you can earn God’s favor.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What do you think the word "serve" in the above means if not "worship"? Do you think it's telling you to serve him a tasty beverage or something? Aside from all the actions that traditionally constitute worship, how else does one serve a deity?

Gal 5:13 "Do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature ; rather, serve one another in love."

"serve" and "worship" have two totally different meanings.  I serve many people, but I don't worship them. 

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None of which say that worship isn't mandatory.

you're having an extremely difficult time understand the concept of “motivation”.  To you, God is just an egotist demanding worship like Xerxes in the movie 300, when in reality, the ONLY form of worship that means anything to God is the worship borne out of awe and thanksgiving.  That kind of worship is NOT done out of obligation or fear, but rather that kind of worship comes from a natural reaction in response to attaining an audience with his presence; for, his presence overflows with love and mercy and grace.  And the natural response to being in the presence of perfect love and perfect mercy and perfect grace, is to be filled with awe and thanksgiving, and to immediately fall in love with such greatness – to the point where worship simply becomes a natural instinctive response.

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I didn't really get anything out of reading that passage - tried multiple translations. It's a rather poor explanation IMHO.

Then please read it again.  It’s stating that the Old Covenant at Mt. Sinai was instituted with a presence of God that terrified the Israelites into worshipping God out of fear.  But the New Covenant allows believers to experience the gracious side of God that will fill a believer with incomprehensible joy so that we worship out of a supernatural born love of God.

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And anyways, aren't you always telling us non-believers that we'll burn in hell if we don't believe? How is that not using fear to try to get people to believe?

I’m not trying to use fear, I’m simply stating fact.  The fear you experience is simply your God given conscience bearing witness to what is said, unless, of course, your conscience is seared to the point where it feels no shame.

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Still, the whole believers->paradise and non-believers->eternal torment thing is clearly a matter of reward and punishment.

I disagree with the “reward” part of your statement.  Salvation is a gift, not a reward.  There are heavenly rewards, but they are NOT to be equated with salvation, for they are in addition to salvation.

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Anyhow, seeing as I don't believe in your religion, I don't have any reason to lower myself to your deity or his judgement, both of which I'm pretty sure don't exist.

Well, obviously, for if you were sure they didn’t exist, you wouldn’t bother discussing it all the time.  The fact that you constantly discussing it only proves you haven’t discounted it.

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My point is that you keep telling people to believe what you believe, and then you act surprised and indignant when they don't even though you fully admit by your own testimony that whether or not they believe is out of their control. Maybe you're the one who needs to come off of his high horse.

I implore others to believe in Christ because it is only through human testimony of believers that unbelievers become believers, and it is only through belief that the sinner can be saved.  And, no, I am not shocked that you don’t believe, for I was an unbeliever myself for 25 years.  Since I can not know whether or not my testimony will be what God uses to open your eyes, I can only pray that you’ll accept Christ.  Who knows, you may very well reject my testimony, I just pray that some day you will accept someone’s testimony about Christ.

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I disagree with the “reward” part of your statement.  Salvation is a gift, not a reward.  There are heavenly rewards, but they are NOT to be equated with salvation, for they are in addition to salvation.

Unless there are those who gain salvation and yet gain no heavely rewards, then they are to be equated.[/quote]

Why is it that you act as if you know more about what the bible says than I do?

1Cor 3:11 “11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.”

So, I so again:  Salvation is NOT a reward in Christianity, it is a gift.

***GAME OVER, PLEASE INSERT COINS TO PLAY AGAIN.***