who is God talking to here? (user search)
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  who is God talking to here? (search mode)
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Author Topic: who is God talking to here?  (Read 4091 times)
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jmfcst
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« on: February 12, 2009, 03:22:45 PM »

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.

the only verse like this I have found is Isa 6:1-8:

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So, who is the "us" God is referring to in Isa 6:8?  Isaiah only saw God and the angels surrounding him, so I would have to assume God is talking to his surrounding angels.
 
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jmfcst
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2009, 06:57:25 PM »

Interestingly, what Jmfcst says is how Rashi explains the verse here, bringing the Talmud which says that from this verse we see the humility of God, that he consulted the angels, even though He, of course, knows best. Rashi adds, that God specifically did it here to pacify the angels who could get 'jealous' of humans. Rashi goes on to say that the next verse specifically is written in singular form to show that God, and only God actually created man (to counteract the possibility for heretics to say there's more then one God).
The Rashbam (a grandson of Rashi) actually brings the verse jmfcst brought from Isaiah, as well as a couple of other examples.

Please list the other examples.  Isa 6:1-8 is the only passage that has caught my attention while reading the bible, but I am sure there are more that I over looked.
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jmfcst
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2009, 07:29:11 PM »

Sorry, I just looked at the Rashbam again, and I see the only verse clearly parallel to here in Genesis is the one in Isa. The other two verses he brings are just examples of where we see others interact with God in a way not accepted as being possible (at least in Judaism). One is Kings I, 22:19 where we see God surrounded on His left and right, which doesn't make sense according to the Jewish understanding of God. The second one is Job 1:6 where we again see interaction with God that isn't possible.

why is the following interaction with God not possible under the Jewish understanding?

Job 1:6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."

1Kings 22:19  Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left."
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jmfcst
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 12:47:05 AM »

1Kings 22:19  Micaiah continued, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left."

The left and right in kings isn't possible because God isn't somewhere that he can be surrounded on His left and right.

I completely agree!  God is an infinite spirit and is omnipresent, filling the entire universe, so he can NOT be surrounded; while created beings (e.g. angels) are finite in space and time (even if it’s in the spiritual realm and not the physical realm).

BUT…since finite beings (e.g. angels, man) can NOT comprehend an infinite being, God does make his presence discernable within a limited space:

Exo 29:11 “Slaughter it in the LORD's presence at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.”

Now, from my own experience, sometimes this presence is manifest within, sometimes it fills a room, and sometimes it is manifest within a distinct location within a room (not that you have to be in that exact location of the room to discern his spirit, rather that you simply discern that the God is in that location of the room.)

So, the language of 1Kings 22:19 doesn’t have to mean angels surrounded all of God’s existence, rather it simply means they surrounded the manifestation he provided of himself.

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Job 1:6 "One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."

The verse in Job, in it's context, and by the Hebrew wording used, is understood by most Jewish commentators as referring to them coming to argue with God.

Not sure I understand why it would be impossible to argue with God.  Certainly unwise, but not impossible.

Other than pointing out that Job is referenced elsewhere within the Old Testament (Eze 14:14 and 14:20), I don’t have much to add, other than to point out that if a verse doesn’t fit a sect’s doctrine, then maybe the doctrine is incomplete.

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jmfcst
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 04:37:53 PM »

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit were all present and active in creation (whether it was via the evolutionary process or something else is uknown to me for certain, though I lean toward evolution.)

I am sure Jmfcst knows or can cite the exact passage.  But the New Testament is unequivocal (as was the Council of Nicea) that Jesus was both present and active in the creation of the world/universe. Through Him...all things came to be....

Well, you've put me in a bind because I do not believe God is a tag-team of three entities.  I believe God is a single entity and is an omnipresent spirit filling the whole universe.  The Holy Spirit is the manifestation, for the purpose of discernability to his finite creation, of his spiritual presence.  And Jesus was the manifestation of that very same spirit wrapped inside human flesh....so that "in the body of Jesus Christ dwelt the entire Godhead" (Col 2:9).

As Yamor correctly stated:  there is no right hand or left hand of God, for God is an invisible spirit without flesh who fills the whole universe. 

Isa 6:8 is NOT to be interpreted that he literally saw God.  "No one has seen God, but God the One and Only" (John 1:18).  God is invisible and fills the whole universe, he can not be visibly seen.  Rather Isaiah simply saw a manifestation of God, given by God to Isaiah for Isaiah's edification.
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