Man Arrested in Wales for Preaching Christianity

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How many of them would indentify with the apostles crede, for instance--which is a good standard?

No, I don't think the apostles creed is a good "standard".  I may agree with what is says, but I would not identify myself with it.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

How many of them would indentify with the apostles crede, for instance--which is a good standard?

No, I don't think the apostles creed is a good "standard".  I may agree with what is says, but I would not identify myself with it.

Why not?

Because the bible is the only standard of the faith.  So even if I agree with everything in a creed, I would not use a creed as a litmus test for myself or anyone else.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Don't get me wrong, I believe the Bible is of course the only authority in matters of faith. However, I think a correct creed is a useful instrument for summing up the essential tennets of Christianity. For instance, Jehova's Witnesses believe in biblical authority--or at least the authority of their so called "translation"--but I don't think either of us would consider them Christians. A creed is just a means to an end, but when it accurately reflects scripture, it can be an useful tool, and for statistical purposes it would serve pretty well.

But someone who believes adultery is ok could agree to the creed and would still not be a "Christian".

Also, some creeds have disputes rooted in semantics.  For instance, The Athanasian Creed concerning the Trinity uses the concept of "3 persons". which totally confuses me.  I do not believe Jesus is a third of the Godhead, rather I believe the entire Godhead dwelt in the body of Jesus Christ (Col 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.")   So, I don't know how I would split God into three persons when in the body of Jesus dwelt the whole kit n' caboodle.  Jesus himself said that "the Father lives in me" in John 14:10.

So I am not going to attempt to segregate the Father from the Son, for there is no separation.  But my simple unwillingness to adopt the semantics of the phrase of "3 persons" would have gotten me killed by other "Christians" in times past.

And many of these creeds were used as political instruments to do just that - consolidate power and execute anyone who disagreed.

Jesus did not give me a creed to distinguish Christians from the world, but he did leave me this limit test: “You shall know them by their fruits” (Mat 7:16) 

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[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Jesus did not give me a creed to distinguish Christians from the world, but he did leave me this limit test: “You shall know them by their fruits” (Mat 7:16) 

Unfortunately, that isn't really that practical for statistic purposes. I picked the apostles creed especifically because it is the simplest. Of course, you can simply ask people of they're Christians, but that's not really that good, becasue Jehova's Witnesses and Mormons will tell you they are Christians. In the end, you can't have an accurate statistical measure.

First, I don’t know why you need to take a census.  What purpose does it serve?

Second, these creeds do little more than cause divisions.  In fact, their sole purpose is to exclude those that refuse to agree with the semantics.

There is a parable covering this topic:

The Parable of the Weeds
 24Jesus told them another parable: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
 27"The owner's servants came to him and said, 'Sir, didn't you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?'
 28" 'An enemy did this,' he replied.
      "The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?'
 29" 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' "
The translation is a little lost in the NIV.  Instead of “weeds” it is really “tares” that look very much like wheat and can be confused as wheat (and wheat can be confused by tares).

The lesson is simple:  stop trying to separate good Christians from bad Christians, for your process of separation will not be perfect and you will end up destroying the good…which is why I don’t like denominations.

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By the way, one day when I have time, we're going to have a talk about your perfectionist pelagian tendencies.

I had to look that up: "Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did NOT taint human nature"

Don’t know why you think I would believe that, for I have repeatedly stated on this forum that I believe mankind took on a sinful nature when Adam and Eve sinned.  And that sinful nature was passed on to all their descendents.  That is why I believe homosexuality is completely “natural” for it stems from the sinful nature.  I believe all sins are products of our sinful nature.  We are all predisposed from birth to sin as a result of Adam’s transgression.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The statistical thing was the original topic. We were talking about aproximately how many people in the UK are christians. And anyways, I just used the Apostles Creed as an example, it was nothing set in stone.

ok, I understand now.

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correct me if I'm wrong in my assertion that you believe this--that you believe that after regeneration--being born again if you will, though I'm not a fan of this term--the christian is capable of avoid sinning completely. I believe that while the amount of sin is going to be decreased, and good works will be brought forth by faith, the saved person will still sin, and sin most serious and grieviously even, because of the weakness of the flesh. However, more than anything, the regenerate has the notion of his sin and the need for repentance.

Why take issue with the "born again" term when Jesus used it himself?

As far as being "capable of avoid sinning completely"...yes, I believe born-again Christians have the "capability" through the Holy Spirit to avoid any and every sin.  Does Christ set believers free or does he not?

But no one practices everything they preach or believe, and they will eventually choose to follow their own desires from time to time and will have to repent and come back to Christ.  But I do think it is quite possible to go 24 hours without sinning.  But each 24 hours brings a new day and we must crucify our flesh DAILY:

Luke 9:23 Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

1Cor 15:31 “I die every day—I mean that, brothers—just as surely as I glory over you in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

So, since we are still in the flesh, we have to deny it daily.

What I striking contrast to the message spoken by TV preachers who tell their audience everything in life will be peaches and cream if they just send in more money. 

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Bono, I agree with everything you posted, I even agree that Rom 6:1 - 7:12 refers to life after receiving the Holy Spirit, so I am not sure you were trying to refute what I posted or are just merely agreeing with it.

My point was that it IS possible not to sin when you have the Holy Spirit, as the following verse that you posted points out:

Gal 5:16 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh."

Which is what Jesus himself stated, John 8:36 "So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed."

Does that mean any born-again Christian will continuously choose to be free?  No, of course not, for "a dog returns to its vomit" (Pro 26:11; 2Pet 2:22).

As you can tell, I don't place any undue burdens on Christians, but neither do I wink at sin.  But it is possible to go 24 hours without sinning.  It is possible to lay your head down on your pillow at the end of the day knowing that for a brief period of time, you didn't fail.  But tomorrow will also bring another day and another chance to return to your vomit.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Bono your thread title is misleading, he wasn't preaching Christianity, he was encouraging discrimination. Two lines from Leviticus Chapter 18 are not "Christianity".

You mean these two verses from Leviticus?:

Lev 18:23 Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.

Lev 20:15  If a man has sexual relations with an animal, he must be put to death.

I finally get your point: it would be “encouraging discrimination” for a Christian to preach these two verses!!!

Wisdom such as yours shouldn’t be hidden; rather, you should take a MagicMarker and travel across the country blotting out these two verses from every Christian’s bible so that they will stop “encouraging discrimination”.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Probably--but does that really matter? it's just an arbitrary line. I coud say we can go without sinning for one minute, or one hour, or one week, or exactly 35 hours, 44 minutes and 27 seconds, but would it really matter?

Yeah, it matters, for if a Christian can't go without sinning for one minute, or even one hour, then maybe they didnt' meet the Christ I met.  And I am not saying that to be mean or judgmental, but you need to examine yourself to see whether or not you actually have control over your flesh.

And you need to reread Rom ch 6-8 again, for it speaks about becoming a slave to righteousness instead of being a slave to sin (chapter 6).  Chapter 7 speaks about the daily battle we face, but chapter 8 also state the required outcome of that battle: "For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." (Rom 8:13)

You can NOT continuously live in the state described in chapter 7 and be saved, for then you would have overcome nothing.  Rather you have to take solution mentioned in Rom 7:25 and gain control over your flesh as described in Chapter 8.

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My point of contentin is that it's consistently impossible--except perhaps for someone being regenerated--or born again if you will--right on the deathbed, and even then I have my doubts--to avoid sin continually and never commit it after recieving the Holy Spirit? I say no, Holy Spirit or not. This is especially true of sins that merely involve thought.

Why would you doubt that someone receiving the Holy Spirit on their deathbed could not keep from sinning until death?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You can NOT continuously live in the state described in chapter 7 and be saved, for then you would have overcome nothing.  Rather you have to take the solution mentioned in Rom 7:25 and gain control over your flesh as described in Chapter 8.

I don't see how that perfectionism is compatible with Paul's statement in...
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How, exactly, is my statement "perfectionism"?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Your statement isn't. Your doctrine is.

And I pray you tell me how I am supposed to respond to that.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Forget it. Call it what you want. By perfectionism I mean that doctrine that moral perfection is consistently attainable. That is more often than not connected with legalism, that is, any attempt to rely on self-effort to either attain or maintain our justification before God.

Why exactly do you mean by "consistently attainable"?

Let's take the example of an alcoholic getting saved and receiving the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe he could live as a born-again Christian for another 50 years and not take another drink for the rest of his life?  I do.

Do you think he is going to constantly struggle the rest of his life with the temptation of have another drink?  I don't.  Rather I believe James 4:7, that through Christ we can hold up under temptation until the temptation leaves us, and therefore we 'overcome'.

Or do you think he can be cleansed by Christ and continue to get drunk each week of his life and still be saved?  I don't, for he never overcame.  You can't tell me that we can go back to the same sorry state Christ found us in and still be saved.

But can we stumble and still be saved?  Of course we can still be saved, for Christ died for our sins past present and future, and salvation means that you are moving towards perfection, not that you have already attained it.   Which is exactly what Paul was stating in the verse you posted:

“Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me.” (Phil 3:12)

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And I will say this again:  Rom 7:12-24 is NOT a picture of overcoming, it is NOT a picture of salvation, rather it is the reality of a losing battle WITHOUT the power of the Spirit (which is why the Spirit is not mentioned in Rom 7:12-24).  And the picture of the losing battle in Rom 7:12-24 is contrasted to the overcoming battle of Chapter 8.

So, we must realize, daily, the state of the battle (Rom 7:12-24), so that we daily crucify our flesh in order to attain the prize set before us. 

You cannot say that the picture painted in Rom 7:12-24 is a picture of overcoming, for it is not.  It is a picture of our minds losing the battle of will power and getting our butt kicked by sin.  It is not a picture of control.  It is a picture of being out of control.

And if I wake up tomorrow and forget to crucify my flesh and forget to cast down my vain imaginations, then I am soon going to find myself back to Rom 7:12-24. 

And when I do find myself back in the state of Rom 7:12-24, was it because the flesh was stronger than the Spirit?  No, I simply chose to obey my flesh instead of obeying the Spirit, even though it was in my power to keep in step with the Spirit.

Failure is NOT a foregone conclusion, rather it is an option:

1Pet 5:9-10 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings. And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast.

1Cor 1:10-13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

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When I am faced with despair for my own sin, I am best to keep in mind the words of Romans 8:28-39:

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son

Being “conformed into his image” is what is being mentioned in Rom 8, not Rom 7:12-24. 

I say this because it sounds like during the times when you’re in the state of Rom 7:12-24, you are comforting yourself with 8:28-39.  If so, that is incorrect.

Rather Rom 8:28-39 is a promise to those who suffer with Christ in the process of overcoming (see continuing context of 8:17).  It is not a promise to those who do not move beyond the point of Rom 7.

If anyone wants to get beyond Rom 7, they have to repent and use the gift of the Spirit in order to start stringing some victories together, then you can take comfort from Rom 8:28-39.

Luke 10:19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.

Rev 21:7 He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.

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My statements do not reflect a doctrine attaining perfection in this life, but they do reflect a doctrine of victory in this life through faith in Jesus Christ!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Bono,

I am not going to be able to post for a while.  Work is about to get very busy.  So I'll leave you with the last word.

Take care and may God bless you.