What if Abbas succeeds and UN recognizes Palestine within pre1967 borders?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Yeah, I think what's going on with that verse is Jesus, speaking ~AD 30, discussing something that happens in AD 70. There's no need to bring AD 2011 into it as well.

well, hate to shake you up, but Jesus continues in the Olivet Discourse and discusses the events surrounding his return to earth in full view of every nation....so I think you fell off the turnip truck someone around 70AD.

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The people in charge of the current entity called 'State of Israel' are in fact modern Jews, not OT Jews. Sorry.

you know, people like you show up from time to time on this forum...I'm sure someone can point you to a thread about this subject, since it has only been discussed and discarded about a dozen times on this forum in the past

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

So, are you familiar with preterism at all, or just enough to be able to get your view of what its claims are entirely wrong?

I think preterism has some deep, yet basic, internal contradictions that it needs to work out on its own before I waste any more time on it.  And I also know, because I read their writings, that some of those early church fathers believed EXACTLY as I do - that the temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem and the Antichrist will be ruling from it when Jesus returns.

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you know, people like you show up from time to time on this forum...I'm sure someone can point you to a thread about this subject, since it has only been discussed and discarded about a dozen times on this forum in the past

...'people like me'? By which we mean people who don't subscribe to the idea that a religion/ethnic group and the circumstances surrounding its presence in a particular region of the world have not changed in the past two thousand years?
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I mean people like you who attempt to claim that the modern day nation of Israel has no genealogical link to the biblical Jews.

And you called me a racist?!

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

what I am saying is that, while the modern nation of Israel is both genealogically and religiously descended from the ancient one, differences in culture and creed between two or three thousand years ago and to-day mean that treating modern Jews as if they were just Biblical Jews preserved like a fly in amber is willfully ignorant at best.

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

so....their change in culture and creed has somehow revoked their calling by God...as if God’s gifts and his call are revocable, instead of being irrevocable?!

who knew....learn something new everyday.

Well, no. It was the coming of Jesus that made the calling by God no longer unique to a specific ethnic group.

I never said anything about God not being able to call a nonJew.  What I asked you was whether or not you believe God's gifts and calling of blood Israel is revocable....because, if revocable, then there is no reason to treat Israel different than any other nation.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The changes in culture and creed don't have much of anything to do with God, but they have everything to do with the fact that, truthfully, the kind of thinking that you're espousing is not exactly helpful to the Jewish people except on a simplistic geopolitical level. Far better to be 'an ethnic group' than 'a pawn in the eschatology of a religion with two hundred times as many adherents'. Jews have their own ways of looking at these things, even the subset of very religious Jews who support the State of Israel in its present form (which there are, just as there are very religious Jews who don't). Even Jews who agree with you on this issue (of whom, again, there are plenty) wouldn't appreciate being told that it relates to the Olivet Discourse. How do I know, you may ask? Because an entire branch of my extended family is Jewish, religious, and disgusted by the actions taken out in the name of the State of Israel by well-meaning fanatical Gentiles, that's why.

All of this, of course, still has nothing to do with the fact that said State of Israel is taking a minority population and forcing it into refugee camps.

Side note: I'm not trying to get you to agree with me at this point, I'm just trying to explain what my point of view actually is, since your conception of it is a little off (I admit you're better at explaining your views concisely than I am). If I stop replying soon it's not because I've given up on this conversation, it's just because I need sleep.

who cares what the Jews think about their role?!  They can walk away from their God given gifts, I wouldnt care.  I don't treat them based on their realization of who they are or what they are doing, or what they think about what I think of them....rather I treat them as God's anointed whose gifts and calling are irrevocable.  I wouldnt rise up against them anymore than David would rise up against Saul.  Once someone has been chosen, regardless if they are obedient, you don't touch that person in a manner which will attempt to take away the gifts given to him by God.

You're talking as if you've never read either the OT or NT.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I believe that God's gifts and calling of blood Israel was permanent but that since the coming of Jesus we have to take other groups' claims into account as well. This includes Jews who are non-Zionist or even anti-Zionist as well as non-Jews who have roots in the land in question. I think that it's important that Israel exist and be, if not exclusively Jewish, at least noticeably so, because of how important it is to many Jews and because, yes, having Jews be there and be safe there is fulfilling a promise that they've been screwed out of in the past; I also think that it's important that Israel not continue to aggressively expand, because we aren't in Old Testament times any more and while it's not always going to be easy one of the hallmarks of the Kingdom of Christ is recognizing the thoughts and feelings of people who it might not be easy to do that with. In this case, I support a two-state solution with both states having linguistic and cultural protections (not necessary religious per se, but they tend to map reasonably well on to each other at least as far as the Jewish/Arab divide goes).

Again, I'm not expecting you to agree with me or even consider my position theologically or morally sound, I just want you to understand what it is.

1) you're dreaming is you think this is going to end peacefully
2) no one, including Jews, has a claim that will revoke God's gifts and calling to Israel.  They weren't revoked by Jesus's birth death or resurrection, they weren't revoked by the birth of the church on the day of Pentecost...and they're certainly not revoked by the world disputing with Israel over the promised land.

Bottom line, if you raise your hand against God's anointed in an attempt to remove the position (gifts, calling, etc) God put them in, you're a dead man.   That's why David didnt rise up against Saul, even though Saul was wicked and David knew that he would soon be king...that's why Elijah didn't attempt have Ahab killed...etc, etc, etc.

But in the case of modern day Israel, they're simply trying to hold on to their God-given land.  And certainly they have every biblical right to do so.

As far as a NT view of the blood Israel (the Jews), have you not read Romans chapters 10 and 11?  If so, then you know that their call and gifts are IRrevocable and that their rejection of Christ is only temporary and will end when all the Gentiles who are to be saved are saved, thus ending the Age of the Gentiles.

At the very least, read the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis – he, like Christ, was rejected by his brothers even though he communicated his role in their salvation, but Joseph was accepted by the Gentiles and provided salvation for them…and finally, Joseph revealed his identity to his brothers, the Jews, and so Joseph, rejected by the Jews, saved the Jews after he saved the Gentiles.

As Jesus said, the first will be last. And the last first.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

We share the same Creed, after all.

actually, we don't, for I don't go by creeds.

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The issue is that that's condescending and frankly kind of unnecessary. I'm not talking about how to think of Jews on a rarefied theological level, I'm talking about how practically to treat them day-to-day. Answer: Like people, not rare and delicate snowflakes or museum pieces.

if anyone, Jews or Gentile, is not adult enough to tolerate my opinion, then who cares?  I treat Isreal as God's anointed, just as I treat a Christian.  If they think that is condescending, then who cares?!  That's their problem, I'm not going to become PC and ignore the Bible simply because they get their feelings hurt.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

let's try to get this thread back on track and talk about the political outcome of a US veto, and leave our religious personal views on the religion board  (I'm trying Andrew, I'm trying ):

please explain how the US could veto recognition of a Palestinian state in the middle of the Arab Spring without having many US embassies attacked throughout the ME?

this is why I think Abbas has used Obama's Apology and Obama and placed the US in a lose-lose situation.

what do posters feel will be the repercussions to a US veto?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

well, Abbas says the PA will never recognize the Jewish state of Israel...and, of course, the Muslims are rioting in the West Bank.

so, without accepting to start a new country adjacent to a Jewish nation, Abbas has basically openly declared war with the aim to destroy the Jewish state of Israel....he will only accept Israel's right to exist if it aint Jewish.