Crowning Moment of Awesome Goldmine (NOT ABOUT BORING RELIGIOUS LECTURES)

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It takes a really big person to go off on BushOK. It's like yelling at a blind person for not appreciating the Grand Canyon.

Bushie's choice to hate gays because he thinks it's a sin is why Afleitch went off on him. 

And I think every person who "disagrees" with homosexuality deserves the same treatment:  F**k you!

I don't have to respect a person for their beliefs if their belief is to hate who I am because they think the way I was born is a sin.

that's an intellectually dishonest representation of what BushOk explicitly stated - he hates the sin, not the sinner - and it is intellectually inconsistent with BushOk's similar views on other "sins".

but this has been pointed out dozens upon dozens of time, but people like you are not going to address the point because your position (to characterize all antihomosexuality as outright hatred of people) is indefensible.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

It takes a really big person to go off on BushOK. It's like yelling at a blind person for not appreciating the Grand Canyon.

Bushie's choice to hate gays because he thinks it's a sin is why Afleitch went off on him. 

And I think every person who "disagrees" with homosexuality deserves the same treatment:  F**k you!

I don't have to respect a person for their beliefs if their belief is to hate who I am because they think the way I was born is a sin.

that's an intellectually dishonest representation of what BushOk explicitly stated - he hates the sin, not the sinner - and it is intellectually inconsistent with BushOk's similar views on other "sins".

but this has been pointed out dozens upon dozens of time, but people like you are not going to address the point because your position (to characterize all antihomosexuality as outright hatred of people) is indefensible.

If I said I hated Christianity, would you feel that I hated you?

Since I wasn’t born a Christian, that is a bad analogy.  A better one would be, “If I said I hated greed, would you feel that I hated you?”

And my answer would be, “No, of course not.  I understand you just hate that character flaw.”

The Gordon Gekko types, those who try to pass their character flaws off as “good”, would be the ones that would scream, “If you hate greed, then you hate me, for I was born greedy.  I was greedy from my earliest childhood memories! You can’t change me.  God can’t change me.  God’s not powerful enough to remake me.  I won’t let him.  I like the way I am.  Leave me alone or I will attack you and call you mean names!”

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

You're saying homosexuality is more of a lifestyle you can choose than your religion?

never said that…. Christianity was not an innate character trait, I simply substituted something else in its place so that I could compare one innate character trait with another (homosexuality with greed)....

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Doesn't that mean that, since you did not choose your christianity, it's a mindless and unfounded attitude which is probably wrong

And I never said all innate desires were evil

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That would mean you're set to burn in hell for all eternity without hope of repenting since your sin is born into you.

All sins are engrained into human nature.  (the desire to lie, cheat, steal, etc, etc, etc)


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You start to see the problem with your line of reasoning?

No, but I can see through your mischaracterization of my line of reasoning.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Is there any reason why all the sins you choose are those that do harm to other people? Why not something about working on the Sabbath, etc. as an analogy for homosexuality?

well, IMO, working on the Sabbath is not a NT sin, rather it is a ceremonial law of the Law of Moses and is symbolic of the coming kingdom of God which is fulfilled in Christ.  

but, if you’re looking for a sin that is only internal and doesn’t necessarily harm anyone else outside of yourself, then what about idolatry?  Idolatry doesn’t have to involve others and it is certainly innate and something we can all relate to.  Or how about drunkenness, laziness, or gluttony?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

how can homosexuality be a sin when you're, as you yourself implicitely avow, born with it? Isn't the point of the whole good-evil opposition that one has a choice between the two? Wouldn't considering homosexuality a sin then mean that there can be no God since we would have to consider a world where some people were doomed before they even made any choice, which is impossible if God is true, good and beautifull? And should that not mean that the absence of a divine PoV would make all our acts contingent, hence rendering homosexuality perfectly acceptable?

the bible clearly concedes the “born that way” argument in dozens upon dozens of verses, from both the OT and NT, and throws all sin into that category – a product of the flesh.  We can invent ways to carry out sin, but we don’t invent sin in our lives.

I really don’t know how and why many Christians have allowed themselves to get dragged into the “choice verses born that way” argument…it’s a false dichotomy for it’s not even a question of choice, rather it is a simple fact of human nature because “born that way” is a given in the bible and the question should be, “Does God have the power to remake your life and give you power over your sinful nature?”

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

Oh right.

Sorry about that [fades into background]

Though the way I (mis)read what you said, it was quite enraging.

Also, to stay on the offensive, how can homosexuality be a sin when you're, as you yourself implicitely avow, born with it? Isn't the point of the whole good-evil opposition that one has a choice between the two? Wouldn't considering homosexuality a sin then mean that there can be no God since we would have to consider a world where some people were doomed before they even made any choice, which is impossible if God is true, good and beautifull? And should that not mean that the absence of a divine PoV would make all our acts contingent, hence rendering homosexuality perfectly acceptable?

_{You start to see the problem with your line of reasoning?}

I have to say, you took making a mistake much better than most people on here do.

the problem stems for hearing and repeating false arguments.  he simply assumed I was making the same argument he has heard time and time again where many people try to blame homosexuals for their sexual desires.

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I think the basic premise here is that being born with homosexuality is different from acting on it. The former you cannot help, the latter you have some sort of choice over. That would be analogous with being born with a desire to commit some other act that certain Christians might view as sins (such as cheating on your spouse).

I don't agree with that line of thinking myself, but it isn't logically faulty, imo.

Actually, I am not even saying that, for if I choose not to steal it doesn’t necessarily change my heart’s desire to steal.  So, if I deny my heart, I’m simply reforming my behavior, but my heart hasn’t been transformed.   So, I am NOT saying homosexuals should bite their tongue and endure a life of desires they must ignore without having any other recourse.  Rather I am saying God has the power to transform their nature.