Israel general discussion

[SATW]

I mean, I had this thought a while ago- me and my current boyfriend will give, together, 12 years of service to the country. 12 years. And yet, the elected government believes we're inferior and unfit to be parents. Well, **** them. I don't really feel like defending them anymore.

This seems to be an unrelated issue, though. On which I completely agree with you: high time for Israel to give gay couples equal rights.

You have long defended elements like united torah and shas and ultra-nationalists. they will never allow equality to occur. ever. they are fanatics.

Likud needs to grow a spine and start supporting the Diaspora again. This jewish state bill being hijacked by the haredis is disgraceful.

I get you support nationalism but you can't ignore democracy or the diaspora. when hasbara activists like me are fuming over the state of things thats when people need to stop and ask what the hell is going on.

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As an American Jew, I like when people who aren't in the community speak for me and millions of other Jews   .

I'm tired of hearing about how I, a conservative zionist,  "enable" left-wing anti-Israel Jews because I won't crap all over my community. (This isn't necessarily something posters here have said, but something I hear on a consistent basis IRL and on social media) I actively was involved in efforts to oppose Anti-Israel and antisemitic behaviors on college campuses. Whether it came from Islamic radicals, or left-wing Jewish radicals or edgy white liberals.

So, no, I don't think me defending the US Jewish Community is enabling anything. The reality is that people like DavidB (someone I deeply respect and admire as a friend on and off atlas) need to understand is that things are complicated.

Yes, American Jews are spoiled compared to the hardships Israeli Jews and Jews in danger zones (Europe, S. Africa etc...) face every day.

Yes, American Jews are falling behind on educating the youth. We are losing people to the false prophets of Anti-Zionism and "human rights advocacy."

Yes, Reform and Conservative Judaism in the US have damaged themselves (possibly permanently) by watering down our religion and customs and allowing (and even encouraging) intermarriage and over-secularization.

BUT..... That being said:

It is also true that American Jews provide millions of dollars in strong support for Israel, the IDF, Settlers and cultural/economic/religious institutions in the homeland. This is a super diverse group of people. Stop trying to paint us all with one brush.

It is also true that liberal organizations such as the ADL, the American Jewish Committee and the American Jewish Congress staunchly support Israel's actions in foreign policy/national security. Even when it is hard to do so. Occasional lapses of judgement is not the end of the world. No one is f**king perfect.

Organizations like AIPAC, StandWithUs, ZOA, the Israel Project etc... are all American-run and almost entirely filled with American Jewish activists and organizers. The crazy comparison that some people on the right and left make of AIPAC to J-Street is shocking.

Thousands of young American Jews, myself included, gave up our aspirations in other aspects of politics to try and hold the line and defend Israel and her policies while we were in college. This includes many liberals and Reform Jews (sorry to burst the far-right's delusions).

DavidB, it is very false and counterproductive to claim only a fringe number of Jews care about certain issues. Many American Jews who are reform and conservative wonder why Israel, apparently, ignores some of their requests on religious and cultural issues.

I oppose Women of the Wall and I oppose weakening conversion guidelines. But, I also oppose the deliberate effort of the Haredi parties and some far-right activists who take glee in spitting in the face of the diaspora.

Where were these clowns in 1948 when Rabbi Wise and Rabbi Silver (both Reform) were organizing support for Zionism in America?  most ultra-orthodox OPPOSED Zionism and the re-establishment of Israel until after the Six-Day War. Chabad was one of the first hasidic groups to embrace Israel, even while sidestepping its secular elements (understandably). Most, however, only put their hands in the cookie jar when they realized they could get something out of it.

There has to be a middle ground. I don't know it is, but we cannot afford to lose the Diaspora. Natan Sharansky's plan may or may not have been a mistake but it was a good step in the conservation with Diaspora Jews.

Many of my fellow Likudniks agree: https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Poll-Likud-voters-favor-recognition-of-Reform-Conservative-groups-562071

The worst part isn't the inaction on these issues, but the tolerance by the coalition of crazy comments from haredi leaders:

1. https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Earthquake-caused-by-Reform-Conservative-Jews-says-Shas-MK-561646

2. https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-adl-head-ultra-orthodox-using-hate-speech-against-reform-jews-1.5422609



But, also, like I always say, it is never one side to blame. Reform and Conservative Jewish leaders need to wake up and realize that their congregations are getting used as political organizations and that they have sold themselves out for the false comfort of diaspora acceptance:

1. http://www.thetower.org/article/reform-and-conservative-judaism-have-failed-in-israel-and-its-their-own-fault/

2. https://www.timesofisrael.com/an-author-predicts-an-end-to-diaspora-jewry-thanks-to-tikkun-olam-progressivism/

3. https://nypost.com/2018/06/23/liberal-jews-are-destroying-their-own-religion/

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This is an awesome post, Sunrise. I find it admirable that you defend your fellow zionists from the left and don't go along with the line of many on the modern right who wish to take zionism to themselves and proclaim leftists as post-zionists. I also strongly agree with your views on the Haredi party- I think it's really telling that the opposition to their outrageous actions is so widespread, and I suspect an overwhelming majority of Israelis view them with distatste. If they think they can keep doing what they want and saying what they want in such an environment, their bubble is bound to burst at some point. And people like you (or like Chuck Schumer from the other side) make me dearly hope that the Jewish-American community can recover from its decline and maintain itself as a proud and strong force in the U.S., supporting Israel (which will hopefully start showing gratitude) despite having a majority of reform and conservative liberals, living and marching alongside orthodox Jews, even the staunch right-wingers like yourself.. It's beautiful imo.

I obviously disagree with you on a few issues- I, especially as a member of the post-Soviet Jewish community abused by the Rabanut, support weakening conversion guidelines and (though they're sometimes too in-your-face for me) the cause of Women on the Wall. Especially the latter- there's really no reason to let the Haredim own the Western Wall, it belongs to all Jews. In any case, before they owned it there was no sex-based segregation there and it did fine. But well, I'm generally quite radical on the issue of the Rabanut.

Thanks, I appreciate it. I think for me, as both an American and Israeli citizen, I have figuratively been feeling like the ground has been falling out from under the US-Israel Relationship's intrinsic fabric. I remember reading in Michael Oren's book that the most glaring example of the awkward underbelly of the US-Israel Jewish relationship was when he experienced his daughter's marriage not being recognized due to her being Reform. (for those non-Jewish posters who don't know, Oren was Israel's Ambassador to America from 2009-2013, so ridiculous that his daughter's marriage was not seen as real while he was serving Israel as a diplomat).

Oren was for a long time seen as the quintessential child of US-Israel Relations due to his upbringing as an American Jew and his career as an Israeli Jew. Young American Jews who went to college from 2009-2013 were able to connect to him on so many personal levels. Ron Dermer is also an American-Israeli and an Israeli-American, but his story is not ringing true to Americans in the same way that Oren's did. This type of romanticism seems to be dying and it is problematic.

Storytelling and fond personal experience is what keeps all relationships strong. Today's generation of American Jews don't have that. Most have never even been to Israel. How can they be expected to unflinchingly defend Israel if 1) they don't feel represented and 2) if they have no personal aura connecting them to Israel?

Birthright does amazing work, for example, in building that personal connection, but not all Jews go on Birthright.  Not because they don't want to go but because timing or personal situations don't work out.

I think all sides of the religious divide need to realize that we all contribute to this decline. The worst part is that there is no real place for a conversation. Reform/Conservative Jews get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views and Orthodox/Haredi Jews also get upset when one does not take an absolutist defense of their views.

On the broader Diaspora-Israel Relationship, I think the biggest factor is that for so many decades American Jews were used to both parties having some sort of Pro-Israel wing. Dems were more Pro-Israel from 1948-1970s and the GOP has been more Pro-Israel since 1980s but even after that switch there was always a strong Pro-Israel faction  in both parties. Until Barack Obama won in 2008. I don't want to place all blame on him but his policy shellshocked a lot of Pro-Israel Americans.

Until 2011-2012, Israel was never a top priority issue for me, for example. I always expected both parties to be Pro-Israel. Not in a blind way, but in a sympathetic way. Even in 2008 none of my criticisms of Obama or the Dems were Israel-related.

Democrat Jews responded it to it in two ways: 1) Criticizing Obama on Israel but still voting democrat (which is a fair position to take) 2) Selling out Israel and conforming to Anti-Israel bashing on the far-left.

The Jewish Right, instead of just trying to defeat the anti-Israel Jews and anti-Israel progressives, decided to torpedo the whole DNC with attacks. Similarly, Jewish Democrats decided to label all of the GOP as crazy evangelicals  (and now claiming most Repubs are "alt-right") without also pointing out that there are many good Pro-Jewish and Pro-Israel Republicans. This has led to the politicization of Israel.

On the conversion question, I am also a son of Post-USSR/FSU Jews and I definitely understand the anxiety and frustration with the Rabbinate. I support reforming how the Rabbinate functions, but my fears on conversion and how intermarriage is viewed is directly related to the failures of Reform and Conservative Judaism.

Both Reform and Conservative Jews are intermarrying themselves out of existence. A huge majority of Jews in America intermarry and their kids do not identify as Jewish. So my hardline on intermarriage and conversion is out of an existential view. If that makes sense.

[SATW]

Good luck, ParrotGuy

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I want Ofer Berkovitch win the run off now that Elkin lost.

[SATW]

How many visitors to Israel even want to visit - let alone stay in - a settlement, anyway? Anyone who does probably has family in the settlement they can stay with instead of staying in a stranger's spare room.

Many people visit the settlements in Israel. Religious Orthodox Jews, Evangelical Christians, Political conservatives etc...

But, I agree, not many non-Jews would want to sleep in the settlements and likely would stay in Jerusalem itself.