S6: Southern Heritage Act (passed)

[NeverAgain]

See, there is a huge difference here. What you are talking about is the perceived persecution of individuals and monuments for their beliefs on the Confederate flag and the flying of it. Your solution? Make this symbol of racism and hatred (for some) a forced representation of all Southerners, not fix or address the perception of a problem you have. Just anger folks more.

Now, listen, I have had family on both sides of the war of Northern Aggression (my multitude of great grandfather was a First sergeant in the Virginia Army). So, I really do understand and sympathize with the ideal of this being a symbol of history for the South. That being said, I wish not to impose these beliefs on those who have a very different familial history and view of this banner.

I am perfectly fine with individuals choosing what or what not to fly (and businesses selling them), that is their Constitutional right of Free Speech. Of course that must also fly both ways, as many places refuse to sell the Confederate flag, because of it's symbolic hatred, but that's besides the point.

Main issue: First off, we already have a Southern Regional Flag, which looks just dandy to me. Secondly, the role of our representative government is to best represent all of the Southern people, not only a few, and certainly not directly attempt to offend or outrage. Thirdly, this isn't about people getting "thicker skins". This is about basic human rights and dignity. If our government was to incite hate and bigotry and thereby restrict other persons ability for free speech, we'd be desecrating the very principles of liberty of individualism that the Civil War was fought over.

So, look, individuals or memorials have every right to uphold their tradition, but our government has no authority and no right to impose this on all citizens, no matter if it is tradition to some or not.

[NeverAgain]

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First off, no it doesn't. Unless I am reading a different bill, all this does is give the South another flag... Secondly, that [what you proposed as evidence] was a locality decision, and I am very much not inclined in a proposal to desecrate the sacred balance of between our regional government and our local cities and towns.

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Beliefs of racism, hate, and injustice, all of which were those that many fought and died for in the Civil War. Should we be honoring something because it existed (and lost by the way), if that is the case, I see a whole lot more need in other cases, then a "rebel" cause whose main source of angered died 152 years ago.

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First off, should we really be modeling our flags and our representation based on amusement parks? I mean, I am all for a new Mickey Mouse flag, but I think that's a subject for a later date. I mean, it is called 6 flags, for the 6 flags of Texas which kind of has an obligation to show all the flags, and has every right to do so as a private organization. We are under no such obligation as a government that represents all persons of the South.

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Well, I guess I consider myself a flag traditionalist. Editing the wiki will be a challenge if we start down a slippery slope of adding as many flags as we want based on our own feelings. I guess this will open the gateway for the Black Panther flag of the South, but as we've established, we can have as many flags as we want, just because a certain group wants it, right?

[NeverAgain]

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You might want to re-read the amended bill then.

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I have no problem restraining local governments from destroying historical monuments and digging up Confederate cemeteries.

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What exactly about the flag symbolizes slavery?

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It's honored today throughout the South in official buildings throughout the South. I see no reason why this chamber of delegates should be any different.

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Given that to you it's a representation of 'racism', Six Flags seems to do just fine with the stars and bars.

The same can be said of the Texas capitol building.

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Again, it's a historical southern flag.

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Then you ought to support flying the Stars and Bars.

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How many historical flags has the South as an entity had?

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Well, that's not what they were doing, at least not the latter. It was who they were memorializing was the issue. Agree or disagree, it should not be within our power to overrule a decision made on these individualized manners by the Local Governments.

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The concept of the Civil War was fought between the states over the state's individual right against perceived government tyranny, based almost solely on the issue of slavery. The flag symbolizes a lost fight for slavery, and is currently being used by many neo-Nazi, and White Supremacist groups, due to this perception. The link is quite clear.

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AND

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Because we do not appeal solely to the desires of lost rebellious causes? Along with this, it is an aspect of Southern history, but is it really representation of the South, especially in it's current new diverse form. Just because it is an aspect, and very bloody, racist aspect, of our history, does not mean it should be forced to be remembered for all Southern citizens.

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Actually, no... It cannot. The Texas Capitol does not fly the Confederate Flag, nor is the Texas flag representative of the Confederate flag (flag was created in 1833, a long while before the Confederacy created theirs). So, no. Untrue.

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Post Reset - 1. The current one that is flying (well, sitting in the Wiki).

This is really just a losing argument. I am fine with protecting and preserving Southern history, but that shouldn't be done through flying flags or intervening in local governments. It must be done through funding our museums, and keeping education alive for the next generation. If that's a discussion you want to have, I am all for it. But there is nothing productive that can come from an intentionally racially insentitive flag being forced to represent all of the Southern people. It may represent some, but it doesn't represent me, nor those who have given their lives to fighting against intolerance, hate, and injustice.

[NeverAgain]

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Declaring a heritage site is very much different than the enforcement or decisionmaking in memorialization of these sites. I personally support Confederate monuments, but I think it must be left to these localities to choose the process to best address them based on the needs of their citizens, not for us to make broad strokes of which are not representative of the desires or needs of those in these communities or those impacted. I am all for protections against vandalism or graffiti, but these provisions should be held for all graveyards, not just those of the Confederacy (of which there are already provisions in place).

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Okay? That means almost nothing. The overwhelming majority of Southerners would not pledge allegiance to the Union after the war due to the North's passage of the 13th Amendment (hence Lincoln's 10% Compromise, which meant that even though 90% were against the North, 10% reluctantly supported it). Just because the majority of Southerners didn't personally own slaves, doesn't mean that the majority didn't support the practice, nor fought for its continuance.

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First off, I'd suggest you look up the Texan Capitol Building, because as I view it on Google (and by the multiple times I have been to Austin), the Confederate Flag is not being flown. So, no, they do not fly this flag, and nor did I say that flying this flag or supporting it's use is an automatic white supremacist. As I clearly said (please do not misquote me), the flag has been and is being used by these groups for its symbolism of slavery. I never said it is primarily used by these groups, but it is used by these groups, and I would worry about supporting the use of this flag and it's potential emboldening of these groups against African Americans and other minorities.

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Our Star Spangled Banner is a banner associated with liberty, equality, and justice for all, as these were the ideals that were fought and died for. This flag, while associated, to some, with a fight against tyranny, it has the obvious connotations of the fight to keep millions of individuals enslaved. That is the disagreement we have here.

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But flags should be representative of all individuals, not the antagonization of many individuals. I see no reason why our flag should be change from one that is entirely satisfactory to all citizens of the South to one that offends them.

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Not that this is a losing bill, but that this argument that we should fly a flag that symbolizes hate and bigotry to many, because it is one aspect of our history is one that I just think doesn't hold up.

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People are more than welcome to fly the flag, and/or celebrate our history but that doesn't mean we should do it. We have no obligation to fly something that some view as a major part of our history (while some view as a symbol of hate), yet we do have an obligation to protect our individuals, and especially not purposefully antagonize them.

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Wonderful! If you would like to change this to a bill that help increase funding for all Civil War battlefields, cemeteries, monuments, and especially our museums, then I would be all on board.

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We are in a fictional game, where there are regions and not states... Even so, the South was still a conglomerate of states. So, they were under their national (Confederate) flag, but also under their own state flag. So there is a flag that has and is represented the South, our current one, and our national one(s). Anyways, just because it is/was a historical flag, doesn't mean it should be our current flag.

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I mean I am fine with it, but if we are recognizing the heritage of many, then should we fly flags that remember and honor the heritage and sacrifice of African-Americans and their enslaved ancestors, the same to many folks that were not involved in the Confederate side of the Civil War (of which my own ancestors were on both sides). I would suggest changing this entirely to adding on to our "Southern Heritage Day", and not flying any flags, instead supporting historical landmarks of our great region and increasing the funding of these places. There we can build on our progress and help our region fully remember its history.

[NeverAgain]

Okay, so before I get to your comments, Mr. Kenobi, I'd like to present my own amendment:

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I will address your comments tomorrow, but I feel this can act as a solid compromise for all sides present.

[NeverAgain]

Nev's Amendment rejected as hostile.  This bill is to protect confederate monuments and cemeteries.

I see not how this doesn't do that. It protects all cemeteries, to treat all that have passed on in this War with equality.

[NeverAgain]

Can you address how you believe that my amendment does not address your beliefs and demands here.

I believe it really addresses my needs along with yours.