Bachmann: Jesus is coming soon, so we should convert all of the Jews

[DavidB.]

She has always been a retard, but still I'm disappointed in her saying that Christians should proselytize among Jews. I, for one, totally support Israeli laws preventing that, and I think it shows a profound lack of morality to attempt this. Shameless.

[DavidB.]

I think she's an idiot, but is it really immoral to share one's sincere beliefs so long as one does not do so in a coercive manner? Moreover, from the snippet I listened to, it seemed her point was that non-Christian Jews aren't irrevocably damned and thus should be proselytized to in the same manner as any other group. When one gets down to it, Christianity is a form of Judaism, albeit one far more comfortable with conversion and preaching to the world than rabbinic Judaism is.

Given the historical reality of coercion, persecution and forced conversions, it is inappropriate for Christians (and for Muslims, btw) to try and convert Jews. This is something Jews all over the world are still very conscious (and wary) of. Also bear in mind that America is unique in the sense that converting is far more common and considered far less of a "big deal" than in most other countries, and to some extent this also applies to converting to Christianity as an assimilated, non-active Jew.

I also don't agree with the idea that Christianity is a form of Judaism.

If she thinks a bad fate awaits non-believers it shows a profound lack of morality to NOT attempt this. Would it somehow reflect better of her to just say "stoopid joos deserve their fate"?

Yes, that would be better, at least they would leave Jews alone. Should I be happy that I am considered "worthy" of being converted? Thanks, but no thanks.

In reality, however, I think it would be the best if Christians would accept these people if they become Christian through free will, but just not engage in actively proselytizing Jews.

Disagree.  What's immoral is not presenting the Gospel of Christ that redeems and saves.

You know, this is what I don't get. I don't believe in Christianity or in Islam but I'm perfectly okay with the fact that people practice and believe in these religions. That should be mutual. Why is it ok to actively try and lead people away from their traditions? It is really the height of disrespect, especially considering the incredibly privileged position Christianity has in the US and in much of Europe (Israel is kind of a different situation of course).

If Israel banned allowing American Christians to potentially proselytize there, it would probably dampen support among American Christians for Israel enough to severely threaten the U.S./Israeli relationship.

Already people are nervous that the relationship is basically "U.S.A... you give us everything we want... and we give you... verbal abuse in return and laugh behind your back"

Israel is not some sort of colony whose resources can be used and whose supposed "savage" people can be converted to Christianity, you know. The current relationship between the US and Israel is extremely unhealthy, for both partners -- but mostly for Israel as it is the weaker partner. I am for a relationship based on equality and principles, and against Israel taking any US aid, so I absolutely agree that the situation should change.

Also, if American Christians genuinely only support Israel if they can proselytize among the Jewish people, which is something I absolutely refuse to believe by the way, then it is better if they stop supporting Israel, for if this is true, their attempts are exactly the same as in the past: they are in a strong position (in the US), Jews are in a weak position (in Israel), and by converting to Christianity Jews would become strong; therefore it would be profitable for Jews to leave their ancestral traditions and their communities. This mechanism, a mechanism of oppression and inequality, would be exactly the same as in Germany, 1850. Proselytizing among Jews means actively engaging in attempts to spiritually destruct the Jewish people, which is the height of immorality.

Eh, I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. The way see it, people have a right to try to convert people to their religion, assuming they are doing so peacefully of course.

In principle I agree with you, and even if I consider it extremely immoral and disgusting I don't think it should be illegal to proselytize among Jews in the Western world, but Israel is kind of a different case. It is the only Jewish state and at least in Israel, Jews should be safe from attempts to spiritually destruct the Jewish people. But of course our perspectives on this issue are radically different

If Israel does away with freedom of religion, we might as well let Hamas take over.

Yes, because the only thing Hamas would prohibit Jews and Christians from doing is proselytizing

[DavidB.]

Wow DavidB, when did you become a progressive Tumblr SJW? Your arguments are that "Group A is special because Group B was once mean to it, so now Group A gets a special safe space where no one from Group B who disagrees is allowed to have any differing views." The peaceful, free exchange of ideas is not triggering, oppressive, or immoral.

Paying attention to historical facts that still live on in people's minds and are very relevant to human interaction does not make one a "progressive Tumblr SJW". Do you use the N-word? If not, then you probably agree with me.

What you call a "free exchange of ideas" is obviously a one-way street, since Judaism does not actively proselytize. There is no "exchange" and there has never been an "exchange", there has only been a continuous attempt to lead Jews away from their traditions, and it is not any better if it's 21st-century-style sugarcoated than if it's 1492-style "convert or die". Israel is a country in which some people are very poor (sadly) and a country that lacks support for its existence. The first reason makes Israel vulnerable to proselytization efforts on a micro-level ("if you come to my church then we'll help you out") and the second reason makes the country vulnerable to accept this on a macro-level, because what will "the world" think? People who want to pressure Israel into not doing this are simply engaging in neocolonialism. Israel is a sovereign country and it has the full right to introduce laws that limit proselytization among Jews. (Funny, btw, that I haven't heard anything about the laws regarding converting Muslims in its neighboring countries -- double standards much?) People who don't understand the inherent problems with Christians engaging in proselytizing Jews are either clueless regarding the history of Christian oppression of Jews (which many older Jews, mind you, still remember from their past) or they simply do not care about Jews (or Israeli sovereignty). In both cases, the problem lies not with Israeli Jews.

By the way, I reiterate my belief that most Christians do not fall in any of these categories: most Christians support Israel yet do not feel the urge to convert us. I have quite some Christian friends who are pretty religious. They simply say: "Well, we'll see who was right if the Messiah comes". Sure, they'd probably like Jews to become Christians, but they are not engaging in proselytization and they respect our traditions, just as I respect theirs.

[DavidB.]

As much as you think your faith trumps people's rights to their traditions, people still have these rights. A rapist would say: "Your worldview might place bodily integrity as of higher importance, but that is simply your moral weighting". Now obviously this comparison is not really a fair one, because most Christians who want to convert Jews do have the best intentions for these Jews whereas rapists generally do not care so much about the fate of their victims, but you probably understand my point: people have a right to their traditions, and this goes even more for people who have been oppressed for living according to these traditions in the past. In such cases, an "I do it my way and you do it your way" approach would be more appropriate.

You may not agree with the Christian faith, but please understand that evangelism is inherently a significant part of the Christian faith.

I do. But why, of all people, target Jews? Given the problematic history regarding coercive conversions and general oppression, one would say that if ever, moral Christians would "target" Jews only when all the other people had become Christians.

This isn't about your family or traditions.  It's about the salvation of your soul. 

For you it isn't, but that idea is something inherently Christian in and of itself, and you cannot (and should not) force others to feel the same.

[DavidB.]

While that is true today for rabbinic Judaism, Judaism was once more accepting of conversion than it is today. Granted, it has always been easier to get female converts, but that's no excuse for adopting the attitude of the brothers of Dinah towards conversion.

The first thing you say is obviously true. Regarding the last thing, we do not need an "excuse" to decide for ourselves who is part of the tribe and who is not, which is what the giyur process is about. Similarly, I don't get to say who can be considered Muslim or Hindu (and I have absolutely no intention to do so).

[DavidB.]

Christians don't specifically target Jews.  I'd imagine that Israel doesn't get that many missionaries compared to other parts of the world.

I know, but this entire debate was pretty hypothetical.