Europe-Middle East-Africa Refugee Crisis General Thread

[DavidB.]

First off, thanks for the considerate reply. It is nice to engage in a discussion about this with someone with whom I generally don't agree on this type of issues without immediately being called a racist (or a bad Jew).

I mean it's funny because people in this continent act so ing smarmy about Trump being some proof of America's backwardness as a nation, and at the same time implicitly endorse his own rhetoric.

I don't think people who say this stuff about Trump and connect it to the US' supposed backwardness as a nation are the same people who come up with the elite/Frankfurter Schule conspiracy mumbo-jumbo.

On the other, I have always thought that it is ... bad taste for the richest countries in the world to sit around and gawp while middle income and poor countries are crippled and humans are left to waste away in camps.

I agree with this.

But I cannot understand dead0man's confusion about why people were decrying racism in this thread. Yes, I know being called racist is very distressing and, err, triggering; but I fail how you can read rhetoric like "uneducated hordes flooding the borders" etc. apparently backed up by a shadowy Frankfurt Schoolian "elite" and not think the motive is racism.

I do think people in this thread -- myself certainly included -- have sometimes been a bit too harsh, but I want to emphasize once again that there is a very real difference between the people who think Europe should "remain white" yet for tactical reasons choose to formulate this in less inflammatory terms while continuing the dog-whistling on the one hand, and people who are simply concerned about the negative consequences, both short-term and long-term, of taking in many migrants from different cultures in European societies on the other hand.

I have the impression that many "pro-migration" posters in this thread seem to see the second type of person (to which category I think all the "migration critical" posters in this thread belong) basically as the same as the first time of person, the only difference being the more subtle language. From this perspective, opposition to immigration is essentially based on racism. I do not think this is an accurate description of our views, and I certainly do not think it does justice to my views (I am, by the way, sufficiently aware of the fact that I am the first one to be kicked out if Europe is to be "made white again", for whom do the extremists think are responsible for all this?) Seeing multiculturalism as something problematic is not necessarily based on racism. For me, it is based on the notion that individuals function better in relatively homogeneous societies and that relatively homogeneous societies are less conflict-prone, allow for more prosperity and, because of the absence of major cultural and identity-related conflicts, lead to a higher quality of life.

[DavidB.]

The economic argument is intellectually dishonest bullsh**t and no "Refugees Welcome" person cares about this. People are for taking in migrants because they think they are refugees and we should help them (which I think is a case of poor judgment, but I can understand it), not because of potential economic benefits.

[DavidB.]

Uh, no. Hate to break your bubble, but the UK isn't responsible for the fact that the migrants in the "jungle" of Calais have dreams about life in the UK that do not have any connection to reality, and London is not under any obligation to take in these migrants.

[DavidB.]

I guess its now general thread for Middle Eastern/Levantine/whatever issues so I guess I can post it there without making separate thread:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/algerian-lawmakers-vote-constitutional-reforms-1967012689

Algerian parliament voted on new constitution.

Not really, this doesn't have much to do with the migrant crisis.

[DavidB.]

That a misconception, a lot of parts of the Autobahn indeed have speed limits on them. But still, it's not the point.

Not really a misconception. You're right, but about 50% of the motorways in Germany do not have any speed limits.

This video was made in France, however. I can tell because of the layout of the roadsigns.

[DavidB.]

Solid post, Palandio.

I agree that genocide is a pretty strong word but at least here in Germany the left (mainstream, not radical) is pretty upfront about the fact that they see the eventual disappearance of German or even European culture and its replacement with something else as an objective, not some sad side effect let alone something to be averted.

Still not genocide. Genocide refers to the physical extermination of a people. "Cultural genocide" isn't a thing and comparing, say, the Shoa or the Armenian genocide to the current unfortunate situation in Europe shows one does not have a sense of perspective and makes one look like a douche.

Btw, I know Gysi (whom I wouldn't consider mainstream left, but this might be debatable) said some stuff about this once, but I can hardly imagine the German mainstream left (= SPD people) talking about the replacement of European culture with intersectional multiculturalism as some sort of policy or cultural objective. Could you show me some examples for this?

[DavidB.]

Well, this German regional MP from the Greens said that Germans no longer constituting majorities in Hamburg and other large German cities was a good thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-KaFRbdXMI

Alright, that's cringeworthy. Wouldn't see Greens in the Netherlands say similar things, but I guess the post-WWII German left has always had this complex about German identity being something bad.

On Europe's future, well, I am glad there is a beautiful country I can go to, because I really think the ship is sinking and most people just don't seem to wake up from their dreamworld. It doesn't look good now and it will only go downhill from here. It is a true tragedy.

[DavidB.]

Surprised you wouldn't see the Greens say this in the Netherlands. Or would they just not ADMIT it? Here in America, most young White leftists salivate at the thought of Whites becoming a minority. The Democratic Party, of course, would never ever say such a thing but it's going to be awkward in 10 to 15 years when the current crop of young people start becoming party and government officials.

They wouldn't necessarily find it something bad if ethnic Dutch were to become a minority, but you won't hear them talking about it and I would, indeed, be very surprised if an elected official from GroenLinks would say something like this. I suspect most people in GroenLinks think this will never happen and find it xenophobic to articulate the idea that it could actually happen.

Of course that's different in the US, but there's a huge difference between the US and Europe in this regard: European states are nation-states based on ethnicity. Compared to most other European states it's also different in Germany because many leftist Germans think, for historical reasons, that the idea of an ethnically homogeneous German nation is something inherently problematic.

GroenLinks leader Jesse Klaver, however, did come up with a remarkable statement on the migrant crisis today. On taking in more migrants, he decided to try and echo Merkel's "Wir schaffen das" by saying "Wij kunnen dit aan, absoluut" ("We could manage this, absolutely").

[DavidB.]

LOL at the Dutch media. Today, a demonstration by Pegida took place: people protested against a new asylum seeker center in Enschede. I don't think highly of Pegida in the Netherlands, since it is a magnet for loonies, so when several newspapers reported that a banner with a swastika had been confiscated by the police, I was not really surprised, because I would not have put this past them in the first place.

Turns out this banner "with a swastika" was not an ordinary nazi symbol, but the organization's logo, where a nazi flag, together with other symbols of hate, is thrown into a trash can. To solely report that people had banners with "nazi symbols" is therefore, erm... incredibly misleading.

[DavidB.]

Surprised Petry would meet him publicly.

[DavidB.]

Anschluss?

PETRY's going to Make Germany Great Again.

[DavidB.]

Meanwhile in the Netherlands: the government facilitates reuniting Syrian asylum seekers (who are already here) and their underaged spouses. Television station RTV Noord has seen documents from the Immigration Agency and found that two 13-year old girls and two 14-year old girls are on their way to their "husbands". A 15-year old girl is on her way to her 38-year old Syrian "husband". The Netherlands apparently recognizes child marriages as long as they have been contracted abroad.

Healthcare workers have criticized this policy, stating that many of these girls are traumatized and that the government is allowing girls to be sexually abused. "These girls need help", one healthcare worker told RTV Noord.

Despicable.

A CDA motion in parliament to stop recognizing child marriages was rejected by a majority of VVD, PvdA, GroenLinks and Group Kuzu/Öztürk (PvdA splitoff).

[DavidB.]

Former GroenLinks MP and one-time contender for the party leadership Tofik Dibi (who lost his seat in 2012) is a gay Muslim. Yesterday he appeared in political talkshow Pauw and talked about gay asylum seekers, who will now be accommodated in different places because of the ongoing violence against them in regular asylum seeker centers. Dibi, however, thinks that gay asylum seekers do not only fear homophobic fellow asylum seekers, but most of all Dutch people demonstrating against asylum seeker centers. "These bruises will just disappear in time", Dibi said, referring to anti-gay violence in asylum seekers. How a supposedly progressive politician manages to utter these words is beyond me.

[DavidB.]

LOL in Stockholm.

The entire fragment of the Australian program 60 Minutes is also good.