Israel general discussion

[DavidB.]

It goes without saying that I support the people's hero Elor Azaria. Parrotguy has done a good job at describing his "side" of the divide on this issue and in this "culture war" in general, so here's the other side. I view this case as part of the culture war by the endangered establishment, soon to be powerless, against the right-wing movement that, due to shifting political attitudes and changing demographics, is slowly but inevitably going to take over power, both electorally and through its "march through the institutions", and change things.

I agree with hnv1 that the sociological divide is much more interesting than the case itself, even if I do find it more than baffling that so many people don't seem to be morally ok (as opposed to legally, I understand that) with Azaria's actions -- but that's probably not something to discuss here (let's keep this a bit analytical). Anyway, my prediction is that, like almost everything in Israeli politics, this will only embolden the right. To over half of the country, Elor will remain a martyr for years.

So is the annexation of Palestine just hot air or are they genuinely considering it? What would happen if they did it and found themselves told that they are going too far by the International Community? Or would Trump possibly carry enough weight to wave it through?

Bennett wants to annex area C, but almost no one wants to annex everything right  now. Israel would have to give the Palestinians voting rights. Nothing is probably going to happen (though annexing Maale Adumim during a Trump presidency, while not too likely, wouldn't be impossible).

[DavidB.]

It feels like it should have been a military excessive force trial, not a civilian manslaughter trial.

It was a military trial, not a civilian one.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Basing a country's laws and values on a system conceived by people 3000 years ago doesn't sound very healthy. The human society advanced a lot since then in values and morals, and there's no reason the people of the book shouldn't be civilized. In fact, the people of the book should strive to be more civilized than most.

I find Torah to be somewhat more convincing than the fact that it's the current year, but to each their own.

[DavidB.]

Israel needs to ask itself whether it wants to be the Soviets, or the Americans.

It should be neither of those. Israel should first and foremost be a Jewish state, and its laws regarding war and peace should be based on Jewish laws regarding law and peace.

Sounds like a theocracy

I'm not saying all of Israel's laws should be 100% identical to Jewish law. That's going to happen when Mashiach comes, but we're not ready for that yet. What I'm saying is that in principle, Torah, Jewish law, and the reasonings on which those laws are based form the best starting point for creating Israeli laws. We shouldn't aim to mirror the American system, or the British system (which we unfortunately inherited; it's fine for the Brits, but not necessarily for us), or the Soviet system. We should aim to be a Jewish state.

The guy that was shot was an enemy that found his death after trying to kill people himself. I have no problem his death and don't think any injustice was done here. Having said that, executions shouldn't be done by soldiers acting on their own, they should be done by the state. Shooting someone without authority has its consequences.

A voice of reason. Thank you. And thank you, DC.

[DavidB.]

Nice way of deflecting the point. Clearly Parrotguy was asking whether Israel should want to be known as a nation known primarily for its justice (like the US in WW2) or as a nation known primarily for its vengeance (like the Soviets in WW2).

Has nothing to do with deflecting his point and everything with rejecting it. I don't care for your and Parrotguy's Western view on morality regarding war and peace. That's the entire point of this disagreement. I also don't think the idea that the U.S. was oh-so just whereas the Soviets were simply being vengeful should be taken seriously.

Personally, I think a pardon is more than warranted, followed by an official government-initiated ceremony on the Temple Mount to celebrate his freedom with the people.

[DavidB.]

These kinds of attacks are mostly one person deciding to act on his own, sometimes he's encouraged or aided by an organization like Hamas or ISIS, but most of the times he acts independantly while claiming to belong to some organization. This time it appears to be ISIS, which is not related to any Palestinian leadership.

Sure, but at the same time attacks like these are far too much celebrated in Palestinian society, including by Palestinian political leaders. The perpetrators are widely perceived as heroes and receive money from the PA if they survive.

[DavidB.]

The Knesset today voted 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.

[DavidB.]

The Knesset today voted 51-17 in favor of banning the far left NGO Breaking the Silence from schools, with Meretz and the Joint List opposing the proposal.

Meretz and ZU, I assume the Joint List would be against, but no one from the party was present.

I stand corrected. Had hoped some people in ZU would have seen the light, but too optimistic.

[DavidB.]

Soldiers shouldn't speak against the state and treason shouldn't be allowed in schools (or anywhere, for that matter, but that's going to come soon too), that's correct.

In other news, the arch-progressive High Court has given yet more proof (not that it was needed) why its powers should be curbed by giving the state 30 days to show why women can't read the Torah in prayer services at the Kotel. High time to place the rabbis above the High Court on matters involving Judaism.

[DavidB.]

Why? Would you be fine with the Supreme Court, or that of Netherlands, getting its powers curbed?

Fortunately we are one of the few countries that don't do constitutional review and the like, and we don't have a Supreme Court. If we had one, I'd absolutely be fine with curbing its powers as much as possible, as I want judges' power to be limited. In a democracy it is elected officials who should decide on the laws and set the standards, not activist judges.

This is a direct attack on Israeli democracy.

On the contrary. Left-wing judicial activism in Israel is an attack on Israeli democracy.

Also, I don't see the problem with women reading Torah. They're humans too, aren't they?

Yes, but they don't get to do things that are only for men, just as men are not going to get to light the shabbat candles. This is pretty basic stuff. Besides, WoW aren't even really religious, they're just disingenuous feminist trolls.

Whether the Orthodox Establishment likes it or no, people are getting tired of them.

Sometimes being right doesn't make you popular. (Being corrupt doesn't help their case either, to be fair.) That said, orthodoxy is only going to become more popular given demographic trends.

They're making many in Israel (including me) feel hostility to the Jewish religion, and that's a crime.

How?

The Rabbinate's iron grip over everything from marriage to burial has to end, and Israel has to recognize the Reformist and Conservative Jews. It's mind-boggling that the Jewish State is the only one not recognizing them, and it's also a direct insult against the American Jews who're so invaluable to Israel.

The American Jews that are invaluable to Israel are either not Conservative or Reform, or they are but they respect Israel's character as a real Jewish state. Reform and Conservative Jews are legitimate Jews but their type of Judaism is theologically and halachically illegitimate and fake, and a real Jewish state should not recognize them. Fortunately that's unlikely to happen (though we should remain careful, because the Likud are opportunistic enough to do it).

[DavidB.]

Netanyahu has asked Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett not to put to the vote his bill on the annexation of Maale Adumim, a suburb/"settlement" to the east of Jerusalem. The vote was scheduled to take place in a ministerial panel on Sunday. According to Haaretz, the Trump team has asked Netanyahu to wait with any unilateral steps before the first Trump-Netanyahu meeting in early February.

[DavidB.]

Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)

[DavidB.]

Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)

Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.

Fair point. I'm not opposed to it, to be sure. How often were people still prosecuted (hopefully not persecuted... ) for it?

[DavidB.]

Congrats on 420. I'm sure those people who are barely or not at all able to make ends meet because of decades of inadequate social and housing policies are relieved. (Sorry, this is the cynic in me talking.)

Considering most people persecuted are poor and not the rich kids, this is actually mostly to their benefit.

Fair point. I'm not opposed to it, to be sure. How often were people still prosecuted (hopefully not persecuted... ) for it?

Several hundred cases per year. But the real revelation now is that recreational use at home is completely legitimate. Police acted quite freely in entering homes without warrants (especially in deprived areas), so all in all it's a very good policy toward working class people.

Years ago I used to smoke every now and then (though THC was never my favorite kick) and police picked me up for possession of 1g, I was a well spoken law student so it ended with me being registered in some police database for a year. A Russian friend of mine at the time who came from a poor family was also lifted on similar charge, he ended up being indicted, sentenced to 6 months of public service and had a criminal record...

As a Dutchman I tend to think of smoking weed as no big deal, both here and in other countries (though I don't do it: don't like it), but I'm aware of the fact that in way too many situations that isn't necessarily the case at all, especially if you are disadvantaged to begin with. Good to know this policy has ended.

[DavidB.]

All talk, no action by the Israeli right, as always. This would be amazing theoretically, but the courts are going to declare it null and void anyway. Everything for PR, misleading voters, and blaming everything on the courts... and all that while the Knesset can simply decide to add new justices. If only the government wanted actual right-wing change instead of simply posturing while actually being chickens.

That said... why are Israeli courts so left-wing while right-wing governments have been in power since the early 2000s save for a few exceptions?

[DavidB.]

There is nothing democratic about unelected activist judges overturning decisions made by elected politicians. The argument that ending Israeli courts' excessive powers would somehow end liberal democracy doesn't fly with me either, as I live in a country that is generally viewed as a liberal democracy yet courts here don't have the right to constitutional review. Politicians have the last say and that's what's really democratic.

Hnv1's answer is unconvincing to me, though I obviously believe most people with a law degree in Israel are left-leaning. Time to put a bunch of Itamar Ben-Gvirs on the court to restore the balance, I'd say. Courts overturning a law like this would increase support with the public to make the changes necessary (though Ben-Gvir remains unlikely, lol). If a more right-wing PM takes over after Netanyahu is gone and the right somehow gets a majority without the Kulanu cucks, it can be done.

[DavidB.]

Well, it is perhaps not surprising, but I'm on the very other side of the political divide in the sense that I think the liberal component of liberal democracy is highly overvalued. Separation of powers way too often means channeling power away from the people. The efforts to restore real democracy in Hungary (despite the opinions of the NGOs, the EU, Angela Merkel, you name them) are a shining example to me. Both the West and Israel are in need of going down that road, but for Israel it is more urgent. However, a big downside to the Hungarian trajectory has been (even more) rampant corruption, and this, unfortunately, would probably be unavoidable in Israel as well. This development also too often hurts the working class and the middle class because oligarchs start herding power and wealth to an even higher degree, which is the last thing Israel needs. Society needs someone who is independent of these powers, someone not afraid to take a stand against them and, indeed, to destroy their oligopoly.

[DavidB.]

I agree that the situation in Hungary is far from ideal. It should definitely not be used as a blueprint but rather as an example of the direction governments should follow, in which the opinions of unelected establishment powers, including activist judges, crazy NGOs and foreign countries who don't understand their place, are taken into account to a much smaller degree.

[DavidB.]

I agree on Lehava, they're bad hombres. Saw a march of them through Yafo Street in Jerusalem and they said very bad things. I was shocked and felt ashamed to be Jewish in their presence. Though most were underaged kids parroting stuff they heard in the football stadium. I don't actually want Ben-Gvir on the court, it was hyperbole; my point was that not all judges have to be or should be liberals. I'd just like the judiciary to be more in sync politically with the government.

[DavidB.]

I didn't think I would ever say it again, but at this point I'm glad to have Netanyahu at the helm. Under the Trump presidency it remains important to be cautious in taking any steps that would limit the number of options in the future. Annexing area C in its entirety would be the height of foolishness, and while I align ideologically with some of the people on the Likud right, they are manifestly unfit to lead the country. Perhaps I'm becoming more of a moderate, but I think Netanyahu is handling the relationship with the Trump administration the right way.

Though this doesn't change any of my other criticisms of Netanyahu and Likud when it comes to domestic issues (oligopolies, economy, cost of living, judicial overreach, NGOs, "social issues", corruption etc.). I also don't want to know what Netanyahu will do in a new election campaign...

[DavidB.]

True, his wall tweet was a mistake, especially in a time when Mexico slowly starts to become more friendly to Israel. I get where it's coming from and even appreciate the way in which he "plays" Trump, who is really receptive to this sort of thing, but it was a mistake. Israel needs to keep its options open and not increase its dependency on the U.S. Trump may be gone four years from now, while the consequences of the Israeli government's policies in both the domestic and the international realm will live on.

I still wouldn't call Netanyahu unhinged, though that may absolutely change in a new election campaign (G-d forbid). But for now, I think Netanyahu may be the best in handling Israeli foreign policy. I don't rely on the Trump administration's positive attitude toward Israel, because ultimately the future lies in the hands of the Israeli political leadership (which is a pretty scary thought, because my trust in them is very low).

[DavidB.]

So Ayelet Shaked appointed some right-wingers to the Supreme Court today.

[DavidB.]

Thanks for clearing that up, Hnv. I guess Arutz 7 were shilling for BY again.

[DavidB.]

Ya'alon's new party has the potential to hurt YA and Kulanu more than Likud.