Sex work

[WVdemocrat]

Just know that all the hypothetical liberal ladies you think you are impressing with your paternalistic stance actually think you are extremely patronizing and are policing womens' bodies (literally).

Your opposition to prostitution is based on 100% "Nice Guy-ism".

WHY SHOULD PROSTITUTION BE LEGALIZED?

[WVdemocrat]

Just know that all the hypothetical liberal ladies you think you are impressing with your paternalistic stance actually think you are extremely patronizing and are policing womens' bodies (literally).

Your opposition to prostitution is based on 100% "Nice Guy-ism".

WHY SHOULD PROSTITUTION BE LEGALIZED?

Same reason as weed. Do you oppose legalization of weed? Probably not. You've already shown multiple times you're capable of cognitive dissonance.

And there it is.

You have no reason to support this other than a cheap cop out to the libertarian position. I just can't believe it took you this long to admit it.

Any true liberal would believe that prostitution encourages the patriarchal mindset and in that way, is destructive. Not to mention what life is like as a prostitute, which you clearly want to pretend isn't bad or is something that would be fixed by simple regulations. Your resigned position of "oh, well it's going to happen anyway so we might as well just legalize it" is the same position taken by many on the right on gun control ("murderers are going to get guns anyway so we might as well not even try to regulate them") and other issues. Stop taking cues from the right-wing playbook. You have failed to address the plain fact that the poorest and most vulnerable women in society are typically the ones who become prostitutes. Well-off women don't go and become prostitutes. People become prostitutes because they typically have no other choice. By a vast majority, women who are prostitutes would not choose to be prostitutes if they had other viable choices. You're either not hearing that or you're refusing to accept it.

And do you want to talk cognitive dissonance? How about this one, buddy:

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[WVdemocrat]

Just know that all the hypothetical liberal ladies you think you are impressing with your paternalistic stance actually think you are extremely patronizing and are policing womens' bodies (literally).

Your opposition to prostitution is based on 100% "Nice Guy-ism".

WHY SHOULD PROSTITUTION BE LEGALIZED?

Seeing as how the default state of anything is being legal, shouldn't the burden of proof here lie on the side calling for prostitution to be legal? I don't need a reason to oppose something being illegal and if I can't find a valid reason for it being illegal, that's a legitimate argument.

Prostitution encourages the patriarchal mindset and is in that way, destructive. Legalizing prostitution would lead to normalization of the idea of women as sex objects. It would be devastating it would be the feminist movement and to leftism to declare in a single voice that women are nothing more than sex objects.

Life as a prostitute is no cup of tea either. Women who are prostitutes are beaten commonly and typically have STDs. These women are afraid to come forward and report incidents to the police, and I realize that, which is why I support decriminalization. This would remove that fear of coming forward and reporting these types of incidents.

The plain fract is that the poorest and most vulnerable women in society are typically the ones who become prostitutes. Well-off women don't go and become prostitutes. People become prostitutes because they typically have no other choice. By a vast majority, women who are prostitutes would not choose to be prostitutes if they had other viable choices.

The only reason I have heard to legalize prostitution is the libertarian stance. Which is the idea that prostitution doesn't hurt anyone (I would happen to disagree), and so it should be legal. But this isn't an issue where the libertarian stance of "just legalize it" should be taken, because this isn't an issue of freedom - the freedom to be a prostitute. This is a segment in the ongoing culture wars. This is about protecting the dignity of women, and protecting the right to be considered equally human.

Below is an exchange from earlier in the thread. It is just one example of the mindset I am debating with in this thread.

How can you think flipping burgers and having a man ejaculate inside of you are equally "work"?

Because they are.

[WVdemocrat]

That sex is different from any other work is itself a "patriarchal mindset".

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[WVdemocrat]

And now Famous Mortimer will wait another hour to respond to this thread just to avoid responding to his obvious logical fallacy.

[WVdemocrat]

No, I don't think the government should force people into prostitute.

Good job, you're batting like 1 out of 10.

Keep in mind, the only argument of yours that actually stuck was this:

Basically, if prostitution is inherently rape, why isn't all work inherently slavery?

and it just got shot down by this:

If sex work is "just average work" can the government force benefit claimants into prostitution? Would you (regardless of your feelings on means-testing in general) recognise that is an order of magnitude worse than somebody who has to stack shelves?

You just move on from all your other crap arguments and didn't address any of mine.

You don't have an argument. You just happen to think that prostitution should be legal because you think it doesn't hurt anyone (f**king bullsh**t btw) and because there is apparently a demand.

Unlike you, I actually have an argument. I have clearly defined points which explain my opposition to the legalization of prostitution. You have continually dodged giving specifics and instead resorted to beating away at one point, which is now debunked. You're persistent, I'll give you that.

Wait, is this (the quote below) the argument which you refer to?

You take the "conservative position" that sex is an inherently sacred act somehow different from any other function.

That sex is different from any other work is itself a "patriarchal mindset".

Your logical fallacy that sex is the same as any other work was debunked already.

[WVdemocrat]

And Famous Mortimer, just so you can't deny it, here are some of my arguments, for your reading pleasure:

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[WVdemocrat]

You know, Famous Mortimer, you're not entirely wrong. If we legalize, ideally we could crack down on violence and STDs involved in it typically, and maybe we could improve the living conditions of those working in this industry. Personally, I have a problem with the message that sends and I find it very troubling that an overwhelming supermajority of women who are prostitutes say they would prefer to exit the industry, so it doesn't seem like our response to that should be to legalize.

BUT, I understand your stance on this issue and why you hold that stance. I respect it, and, partially because you're a Democrat , I'd be willing to just agree to disagree. I don't think you're any closer to agreeing with my stance on the issue, and I'm no closer to agreeing with yours.

[WVdemocrat]

Wow, this thread is still going on?

Anyway, I agree with what Beet is saying. You have to acknowledge that sex work is different. Do the proponents of legalized prostitution think the government should force unemployment claimants into prostitution? Should prostitutes have the right of refusal of service?

The reason I pointed out that my opponents were taking the "libertarian position" was because libertarians support legalizing everything indiscriminately. Liberals support legalization generally, but support government intervention to promote social justice. If you want examples, look at affirmative action, or gun control.

You know, Famous Mortimer, you're not entirely wrong. If we legalize, ideally we could crack down on violence and STDs involved in it typically, and maybe we could improve the living conditions of those working in this industry. Personally, I have a problem with the message that sends and I find it very troubling that an overwhelming supermajority of women who are prostitutes say they would prefer to exit the industry, so it doesn't seem like our response to that should be to legalize.

Finally it comes out. People made this point a million times over and you just ignored it and claimed to have "heard no reason to legalize it" over and over again. The reason you are against reforms that would actively benefit sex workers is so you can feel self-righteous about yourself.

That's what I mean. Some conservative could accuse a liberal of being "self-righteous" on the issue of marriage equality, or abortion, or on gun control (I actually have had that thrown at me on gun control - A LOT). Additionally, you seem to believe the ideology of Democrats on social issues is just the libertarian position of "legalize it." It includes legalizing when it's smart to do so, but it also includes promoting social justice, which you conveniently forget. And because everybody keeps forgetting: I support decriminalization.

In sum, the proponents of legalizing prostitution seem to forget that promoting social justice is a major part of the Democratic Party's platform, so don't accuse us of being out of step.

Anyway, I intend for this to be my last post in this thread because it is such a heated and vicious debate, but if somebody wants to respond to this, I'll reply. Thanks for reading.

[WVdemocrat]

I'd just like to bump this thread to say: Famous Mortimer, you were right. I've changed my position. My position before was "paternalistic" and "moralistic grandstanding" as you so eloquently put it. Legalization, which could ensure higher standards of living for sex workers and devastate the human trafficking black market, is the way to go.

So yeah, I just wanted to add that.

[WVdemocrat]

I'd just like to bump this thread to say: Famous Mortimer, you were right. I've changed my position. My position before was "paternalistic" and "moralistic grandstanding" as you so eloquently put it. Legalization, which could ensure higher standards of living for sex workers and devastate the human trafficking black market, is the way to go.

So yeah, I just wanted to add that.

wut?

My position - it has changed.

[WVdemocrat]

If that's actually sincere, then I commend you for being open-minded.

It is. After really thinking about it, I was wrong and my argument was patronizing.

[WVdemocrat]

Honestly, what made you change? Was it getting a lecture from a college age woman?

I was looking back through this thread and reading the language I used, and the arguments I used. The word you used, "paternalistic," really captures what I think my whole argument was. Looking back, I wasn't interested in having a pragmatic discussion about what would solve the problem (which I would say is human trafficking and abuse in sex work), but rather I wanted to dominate the moral high ground.

In theory, there is nothing wrong with prostitution. What is wrong is exploitation and abuse, which would be best combated by legalization.

[WVdemocrat]

But would it though? People like to say "legalisation" like its some kind of magic pixie dust that solves all ills. I mean should we stop and look at evidence? NO LEGALISE YOU FOOL, LEGALISDLIEGALISELEGALISEANDREGULATE

CrabCake, you know I'm not blindly saying "LEGALIZEANDREGULATE!!" It's taken me time and thought to reform my stance on this. You support decriminalization, correct? What does that solve that legalization would not solve?