If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[catographer]

you should judge each case on its own merits.

agreed. also OP, nonbinary genders are real just as much as male and female are. gender identity is a spectrum.

think of it this way: u know how some people are more masculine or feminine than others of the same sex? like feminine guys or masculine girls. well, sometimes a man or woman can feel sooo masculine or feminine that they actually feel like the opposite gender. alternatively, maybe they feel a certain confusion or uncertainty, that they dont really fit "male" or "female." this is nonbinary; our society is intelligent enough to accommodate them appropriately and reasonably.

[catographer]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

[catographer]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

[catographer]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

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I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

If you don't believe nonbinary people are real, then the best way to treat them medically is to allow them to adopt their preferred gender and live accordingly. people's gender identity cannot be changed with science or medicine. therefore the best way to treat trans or nonbinary individuals for their physical and mental health is to change their body (where possible) to match their psychology, not the other way around. also it is proven that transitioning for transgender people with gender dysphoria lowers their depression, suicide rates, and increases overall happiness and social adjustment.

it is not a case of "lying to them to make them happy." there is no widespread phenomenon of a group of people living happily and healthily who identify as something bullsh*t like "frog" or "cat;" there is a group of happy and healthy people who don't have the gender identity of 100% male or 100% female.

on the two-spirit issue, perhaps you could see it instead as an example of how gender can differ depending on culture, and how it isn't solely biological.

[catographer]

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

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How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

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Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

1. big misconception that it is "feelings." do you "feel" heterosexual, or you are heterosexual? in this case, they "feel" nonbinary the same way you "feel" that you're a man. you dont just believe yourself to be a man because you made the logical calculation that your biological sex characteristics should determine your gender; your whole sense of being, your self-identity, which is very much real and not just ephemeral feelings, isn't invalid.

2. the reason we dont see people like that (frogs and cats) is because they dont exist. it's a total strawman, that there are people who are just going by "feelings" and ignoring biological reality. these people are very well aware of the disconnect between their biology and psychology. they didnt decide it would be better to live with the stress, prejudice, hate, and depression that comes with being transgender/nonbinary. it is something they didn't have control over, no more control over it than you have.

3. if you're right that "we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture," I'd argue that you saying that validates nonbinary reality even more, because nonbinary people existed even before we made up these "21st century western" concepts.

[catographer]

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

1. you're heterosexual because you know you are, because you're attracted to the opposite sex. and you are inherently aware of that. similarly, you know you're a man, even if you didn't know what your chromosomes or genitals were.
2 & 3. these are just blatantly, factually false. third genders exist in other cultures and throughout history. western society is experiencing a renaissance of awareness of people like this. people who live in the shadows are still there.

[catographer]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

[catographer]

People ought to be sorted on their actual gender, not the gender they think they are. 

There's no such thing as "the gender they think they are," only their actual gender. Trans people are their actual gender; the one assigned at birth is what society thinks they are.

[catographer]

Important: even if you don't believe transgender people are real, here's an indisputable fact: Accepting trans people reduces their rates of suicide and depression. Trans people who are loved and accepted live normal, happy lives. Rejecting them or trying to change them (which isn't possible!) leads to worse health outcomes, quality of life. So if you wanna save lives regardless of your opinion, LOVE and ACCEPT trans folk!!!