Accepting my accolades

[Xing]

I wouldn't say that people predicting Trump would win were right about everything, but yes, in the case of the election result, you guys were right. There's no denying that. I'm not going to defend everything that every Clinton supporter on this forum said; no doubt, many inappropriate and inexcusable things were said. While I was relentless in my criticism of Trump, I tried to stay away from attacks on individual users. With that said, one of the reasons many of us on the left may have been particularly "passionate" is because of how much we believed was at stake in this election. It wasn't just about being afraid of a Republican winning. Many of us felt threatened, or knew people who felt threatened by the (then) possibility of a Trump presidency. The idea of someone who got so much attention from launching insults, often directed at the most vulnerable members of society, becoming president was unthinkably awful to us. Even if most of us knew that there was a chance that the polls could be wrong, we didn't want to get into it, because the implications of a Trump victory were legitimately frightening to us.

Alas, here we are. You want accolades, here you go. You won this battle, and we lost. We're not going away, though (most of us, at least), and whenever Trump does something that we strongly disapprove of, we won't be shy about voicing our dissent. I would quickly respond to what FuzzyBear said by saying that this is not just about losing an election. Yes, disappointment is part of it, but this is not how I, for one, felt in 2000 or 2004. I felt as if many people who I love the most have been told that they don't deserve to live in this country or be considered American. I'm not saying that everyone who voted for Trump believes that, or wanted to send that message, but there are many who have done and said terrible things in the name of Trump. Those people feel emboldened by his victory. Understand that this isn't just a case of people being sore losers. Most of us have accepted the results, but "getting over it" and "getting behind Trump" would involve putting aside fears that are very much grounded in reality.

[Xing]

I wouldn't say that people predicting Trump would win were right about everything, but yes, in the case of the election result, you guys were right. There's no denying that. I'm not going to defend everything that every Clinton supporter on this forum said; no doubt, many inappropriate and inexcusable things were said. While I was relentless in my criticism of Trump, I tried to stay away from attacks on individual users. With that said, one of the reasons many of us on the left may have been particularly "passionate" is because of how much we believed was at stake in this election. It wasn't just about being afraid of a Republican winning. Many of us felt threatened, or knew people who felt threatened by the (then) possibility of a Trump presidency. The idea of someone who got so much attention from launching insults, often directed at the most vulnerable members of society, becoming president was unthinkably awful to us. Even if most of us knew that there was a chance that the polls could be wrong, we didn't want to get into it, because the implications of a Trump victory were legitimately frightening to us.

Alas, here we are. You want accolades, here you go. You won this battle, and we lost. We're not going away, though (most of us, at least), and whenever Trump does something that we strongly disapprove of, we won't be shy about voicing our dissent. I would quickly respond to what FuzzyBear said by saying that this is not just about losing an election. Yes, disappointment is part of it, but this is not how I, for one, felt in 2000 or 2004. I felt as if many people who I love the most have been told that they don't deserve to live in this country or be considered American. I'm not saying that everyone who voted for Trump believes that, or wanted to send that message, but there are many who have done and said terrible things in the name of Trump. Those people feel emboldened by his victory. Understand that this isn't just a case of people being sore losers. Most of us have accepted the results, but "getting over it" and "getting behind Trump" would involve putting aside fears that are very much grounded in reality.

If you are an illegal alien who is a "dreamer", in that you were (A) brought here by your parents or other adults, (B) have lived here since a very young age, and (C) know nothing of life in your native country, then I do have empathy for your plight.  I hope that something can be worked out that would allow them to stay in the US without granting a general amnesty or on terms that gives others incentive to enter our country illegally.

As for adults who came here illegally, they (A) don't deserve to be here, (B) are NOT American, (C) are NOT my countrymen, and (D) deserve deportation.  Those who are here illegally, who came here as adults illegally, deserve every bit of angst and insecurity they may be experiencing right now.  They brought it on themselves, period.  Those who give them sanctuary, who thwart the law, deserve every bit of the same angst and insecurity.  I can't think of a nation that any person would want to emigrate to that wouldn't take the same posture.

A fear of deportation on the part of an illegal alien is a fear that the illegal alien ought to experience.  They don't belong here.

I was referring more to some of my Muslim friends. But what about people who were lured here by employers under false pretenses, and only come to understand after the fact that there are here illegally? Some of them are treated terribly by their employers, but can't speak up about it because of their status. I'm not saying that there should be no consequences for people in these situations, but why does all of the vitriol go their way, rather than toward their employers, who are knowingly breaking the law for profit?

[Xing]

I wouldn't say that people predicting Trump would win were right about everything, but yes, in the case of the election result, you guys were right. There's no denying that. I'm not going to defend everything that every Clinton supporter on this forum said; no doubt, many inappropriate and inexcusable things were said. While I was relentless in my criticism of Trump, I tried to stay away from attacks on individual users. With that said, one of the reasons many of us on the left may have been particularly "passionate" is because of how much we believed was at stake in this election. It wasn't just about being afraid of a Republican winning. Many of us felt threatened, or knew people who felt threatened by the (then) possibility of a Trump presidency. The idea of someone who got so much attention from launching insults, often directed at the most vulnerable members of society, becoming president was unthinkably awful to us. Even if most of us knew that there was a chance that the polls could be wrong, we didn't want to get into it, because the implications of a Trump victory were legitimately frightening to us.

Alas, here we are. You want accolades, here you go. You won this battle, and we lost. We're not going away, though (most of us, at least), and whenever Trump does something that we strongly disapprove of, we won't be shy about voicing our dissent. I would quickly respond to what FuzzyBear said by saying that this is not just about losing an election. Yes, disappointment is part of it, but this is not how I, for one, felt in 2000 or 2004. I felt as if many people who I love the most have been told that they don't deserve to live in this country or be considered American. I'm not saying that everyone who voted for Trump believes that, or wanted to send that message, but there are many who have done and said terrible things in the name of Trump. Those people feel emboldened by his victory. Understand that this isn't just a case of people being sore losers. Most of us have accepted the results, but "getting over it" and "getting behind Trump" would involve putting aside fears that are very much grounded in reality.

If you are an illegal alien who is a "dreamer", in that you were (A) brought here by your parents or other adults, (B) have lived here since a very young age, and (C) know nothing of life in your native country, then I do have empathy for your plight.  I hope that something can be worked out that would allow them to stay in the US without granting a general amnesty or on terms that gives others incentive to enter our country illegally.

As for adults who came here illegally, they (A) don't deserve to be here, (B) are NOT American, (C) are NOT my countrymen, and (D) deserve deportation.  Those who are here illegally, who came here as adults illegally, deserve every bit of angst and insecurity they may be experiencing right now.  They brought it on themselves, period.  Those who give them sanctuary, who thwart the law, deserve every bit of the same angst and insecurity.  I can't think of a nation that any person would want to emigrate to that wouldn't take the same posture.

A fear of deportation on the part of an illegal alien is a fear that the illegal alien ought to experience.  They don't belong here.

I was referring more to some of my Muslim friends. But what about people who were lured here by employers under false pretenses, and only come to understand after the fact that there are here illegally? Some of them are treated terribly by their employers, but can't speak up about it because of their status. I'm not saying that there should be no consequences for people in these situations, but why does all of the vitriol go their way, rather than toward their employers, who are knowingly breaking the law for profit?

I have no problems with hitting up employers with stiff sanctions.  That's a separate issue, but I'm all in favor of that.  Employers should be no less held accountable to the rule of law then illegal aliens would be.

On the other hand, these folks know that they are illegally entering the US.  Most of them, anyway.  They are in collusion with their employer, and when you make a deal with the devil, it's the devil you're dealing with.  I am sure that there are honest-to-goodness victims in that scenario, but I am also sure that there are many who fully knew what they were doing, in terms of illegality, and did not care about the rule of law.  I get it that the rule of law may be a nicety that dirt poor folks form the third world may not see as a benefit to them, but I would suggest that many of their nations are in the straits they are in BECAUSE they do not have the rule of law.  And regardless of that point, WE IN AMERICA have the rule of law; it is one of the things that make us both a GREAT nation and a GOOD nation.

As for Muslims:  I would suggest that the principles of Sharia Law are, on their face, un-American.  I would suggest that there is no place for folks who believe in "honor killings" in American society.  And I would suggest that the left refrains from criticizing the Muslim community for its misogyny because they are now part of the Democratic Party base.  Islam is not a monolith, but it is a religion with a philosophy, and that includes positions on the correct form of government, positions on tolerance in free expression, free exercise of religion (or refraining from same), and equality under the law regardless of creed or gender that run counter to the principles needed to maintain and sustain a Republic with democratic features.  We have a number of Muslims in this country now, legally, and as long as they're not breaking laws, I'm OK with them staying, but if someone isn't in agreement with the idea of living under a liberal secular democracy, and are OK with using the system to overturn it and attempt to establish a Caliphate, or, at a minimum, bastions where Sharia Law holds sway, then letting those people into our country is something that undermines our democracy.  They hold to un-American ideals, and we don't have to let them in, Constitutionally.  And we shouldn't.

I would point out that many illegal immigrants entered the country legally, but have overstayed their visas. Many of them know very well the consequences of "coming out of the shadows", especially if they have a family. For those that knowingly broke the law, of course there should be a penalty for them. I remain unconvinced that mass deportations are a productive solution, though. And in many cases, people immigrated here illegally because of the mess that is our legal immigration system. I know many people who did it the "right" way, and depending on your country of origin, it can be an immensely time-consuming and expensive hassle. Immigration reform may not eliminate illegal immigration entirely, but I'd bet a large sum of money that it would reduce it. Yes, we are a nation of laws, and there should be consequences for breaking the law, but there are few cases where I believe the harshest punishment is the best.

I have no problem criticizing Muslim individuals who subscribe to sexism, and I don't in any way excuse individuals who are violent. But we should treat Muslims the same way that we treat people of any other group: As individuals. The Muslims I know are wonderful people, and they completely denounce terrorism and bigotry, and don't in any way subscribe to Sharia Law. I don't care if people call my attitude SJW-ish or "politically correct", but lumping them in with terrorists simply by religious association is wrong. Yes, we have enemies who are Muslim, but many Muslims are not our enemies, and they don't deserve blame for what other Muslims do any more than white people who have never discriminated against minorities deserve blame for everything the KKK has done.