If Non Binary Genders are Real and Just as Valid as Man and Woman...

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

What happens if a non-binary person commits a crime?  Which prison do they go to?  Do we make a special all-inclusive prison for non-binaries, or do we have to build separate facilities for two-spirits, genderqueers, and whatever other non-binary genders people say exist?

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Categorize and sort them into prisons and jails by birth sex.

That works.  Gender and sex are the same thing for all meaningful purposes.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Once upon a time I asked why we can't just put both genders in the same prison.  I was really young at the time I didn't know what rape was.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

You're arguing that trans people should be forced to go through hell literally just because of their chromosomes. Go f**k yourself.

I'm not even talking about ftm or mtf, those fall within the gender binary.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

So, after some research, I learned that two-spirit is a modern invention and was never used by Native American societies.  I am not surprised at all.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either party.  That doesn't change the fact that Republican and Democratic are the only parties that are real. This is because the two main parties are based on policy while the other ones are based on idealism. Many of these non-binary voters are also exclusive to certain states.  If they were real parties they would be national.

Call me back when different political parties have different biological functions.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

So, after some research, I learned that two-spirit is a modern invention and was never used by Native American societies.  I am not surprised at all.

Are you unable to read or something? The term two-spirit is a modern neologism, yeah, but it was born as an umbrella phrase from a whole range of behaviours performed by native Americans, because - shocker - the natives had many different cultures with many different traditions.

I was led to believe that two-spirit was a translation of a specific gender that existed in multiple Native American societies.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Okay, I wasn't trying to talk about transgender people (by which I mean ftm or mtf), which is a different topic for a different day, but it still falls within the gender binary.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't deny that some people don't feel like they fit in with either gender.  That doesn't change the fact that man and woman are the only genders that are real.

why do u say that man and women are the only ones? sure they're the two main ones, but why can't there be things in the middle?

Because man and woman are based on biology while the other ones are based on feelings.  Many of these non-binary genders are also exclusive to certain cultures.  If they were real genders they would be universal.

1. they are not based on "feelings," they are based on psychology, which is real and biological (your brain is biology). they are also immutable, and your conception of yourself as a man or woman is psychological and real regardless of whether it matches your sex.
2. if you agree that non-binary genders exist in other cultures, why can't it exist in ours? if you respond that it doesn't currently exist, then why can't it exist in the future? culture changes, after all.

1: Man and woman are based on biology, not psychology, and the two genders have different anatomy.  The different anatomy is essential for the continuation of the human species.  The only social construct is the name we give for the two human genders.  Whether one says man and woman, homem and mulher, or 男 and 女，they refer to the same exact concept.  If someone doesn't act the way that the surrounding believes someone of their gender should behave, that doesn't mean they have a new gender.  If someone's brain tells them that they have some other gender, then they have a mental disorder and need to seek help immediately.  Lying to them to make them happy will not help.

2: The non-binary genders are fake in all cultures.  I was saying that if two-spirit was a real gender, then why does it only exist in a handful of cultures.  Truth is universal.  Male and female are universal.

If you don't believe nonbinary people are real, then the best way to treat them medically is to allow them to adopt their preferred gender and live accordingly. people's gender identity cannot be changed with science or medicine. therefore the best way to treat trans or nonbinary individuals for their physical and mental health is to change their body (where possible) to match their psychology, not the other way around. also it is proven that transitioning for transgender people with gender dysphoria lowers their depression, suicide rates, and increases overall happiness and social adjustment.

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

What you are saying is that people should be allowed to identify as whatever they feel like.  If gender is only based on what people feel, then it is a worthless classification of people and should be discarded in favor of sex.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

How are you sure that all otherkin are not happy?  The reason we don't see so many of them is because it hasn't been declared a civil rights category yet.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, I believe that those cultures were either wrong or (more likely) we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture.

1. big misconception that it is "feelings." do you "feel" heterosexual, or you are heterosexual? in this case, they "feel" nonbinary the same way you "feel" that you're a man. you dont just believe yourself to be a man because you made the logical calculation that your biological sex characteristics should determine your gender; your whole sense of being, your self-identity, which is very much real and not just ephemeral feelings, isn't invalid.

2. the reason we dont see people like that (frogs and cats) is because they dont exist. it's a total strawman, that there are people who are just going by "feelings" and ignoring biological reality. these people are very well aware of the disconnect between their biology and psychology. they didnt decide it would be better to live with the stress, prejudice, hate, and depression that comes with being transgender/nonbinary. it is something they didn't have control over, no more control over it than you have.

3. if you're right that "we've applied the 21st century western concepts of gender=/=sex to another culture," I'd argue that you saying that validates nonbinary reality even more, because nonbinary people existed even before we made up these "21st century western" concepts.

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

1: I'm heterosexual because that's kind of the default.  I'm not sure why some people are not heterosexual or to what extent genetics plays a role (before we go down that rabbit trail, no, I don't think that they choose to be attracted to the same sex).  I am a man because I have XY Chromosomes and have the typical male biological functions.

2: Not that long ago, no one was calling themselves a third gender.  Then it became trendy.  Society's views on social issues are changing rapidly.

3: 21st century Western civilization is probably the most likely place for someone to find a non-binary person.  I can't help but wonder if most of the supposed third genders weren't really considered genders at all.  IIRC one of the non-binary genders was simply an explanation for homosexuality.

1. you're heterosexual because you know you are, because you're attracted to the opposite sex. and you are inherently aware of that. similarly, you know you're a man, even if you didn't know what your chromosomes or genitals were.
2 & 3. these are just blatantly, factually false. third genders exist in other cultures and throughout history. western society is experiencing a renaissance of awareness of people like this. people who live in the shadows are still there.

Western society seems to be a lot more accommodating of non-binary genders than anywhere else on earth.  Go to Africa, go to China, go to places where life is difficult for the average person and tell them that there are genders besides man and woman.  They will not believe you.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Not hard. Just put them in a mental hospital until they come to terms with reality

yikes

I mean... is that really so different than most of the sentiments expressed by the right wingers on this thread?

Anyway, if we eliminate prison sentences for nonviolent crimes, the problem of how to handle gender identity and its overlaps and disjunctures with biological sex in prison siloing, while still thorny, would affect a whole lot fewer people 

Wait so people who recognize basic biology are now right wingers?

I'd love to live in a world where reality isn't seen as a partisan issue.

Says a Republican in 2018.

So if I had a red avatar you wouldn't actually have an argument.

Anyway, if you want to pretend that non-binary genderqueer trigenders are real, then you can do that.  The problem is when people declare it to be a civil rights issue, which means that people like me are the equivalent of the KKK.  If I have a student who thinks that they are a non binary gender and I don't play along I might lose my job.

I was being snarky about the incredible irony of that statement.

Even if it wasn't "real", refusing to respect a student on things as trivial as pronouns means you probably shouldn't be a teacher. Also, honest question, would you respect the pronouns and identity of a binary trans person?

BTW Do you have any evidence that it doesn't exist? Chromosomes aren't an argument because brain gender and body sex aren't the same thing. Trans people aren't claiming they have the chromosomes of their gender.

Even if it wasn't real?  So feelings are more important to you than reality?  For the record, while I'd call the person by whatever name they chose, I would not use some zie/zir/zimself pronoun.

Technically, it should be on you to prove it does exist, but anyway:

Humans reproduce sexually.  Sexual reproduction requires two sexes with different biology.  In English, we call these sexes "male" and "female."  Males have sperm, females have egg.  In very rare cases, there are defects, but sometimes we have to make generalizations (for instance, some humans are born without hands, but the general statement "humans have two hands" is true).

Of course, in English the word "sex" also refers to what the two sexes do together to make babies.  And some people don't like saying the word "sex" in public or around children.  Fortunately for them, they could easily just use the already existing word gender instead, which was basically a synonym.  Gender, which was mostly used in linguistics[1], now was used to describe men and women.  It meant the exact same thing until a handful of people changed the definition.  For most people, sex and gender are still synonyms.

So gender and sex are essentially the same thing.  There are are two sexes.  You could say that there are three genders but one of them (neuter) is not applicable to humans.  If you want to say there are genders besides male and female, I have two questions:  How do you define those genders, and what are their biological functions?  Just because someone feels that they are genderqueer does not mean that they are.

1: English and Mandarin only use gender in pronouns (in Chinese, which developed completely separately from English, they have characters for he, she, and it, but no other genders.)  Spanish and Portuguese only have masculine and feminine.  German, Russian, and Latin add neuter.  The recognition of a neuter gender did not mean that they believed in a third gender for humans.  Take the example of Das Mädchen (the girl) in German.  It is a neuter noun, but Germans still believed that girls were female. 

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Even if it wasn't real?  So feelings are more important to you than reality?  For the record, while I'd call the person by whatever name they chose, I would not use some zie/zir/zimself pronoun.

Your entire argument is based on your unsubstantiated feeling that physical sex is the sole determinant of gender.

Why should it not be?  What use is the term "gender" if it is divorced from the term "sex."

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Identity is not sacred.  I care more about truth.  When someone invents a new gender, they have to prove that its real.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Linguistics is irrelevant to reality. Words can change meaning, and the differentiation is useful.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Oh my god are you really claiming that physical sex and mental gender are the same thing because "gender" and "sex" have roughly the same meaning to most people? Now, I'm using the definition of "sex = physical, gender = mental" here for conveniences sake,  so don't try using etymology to argue. Gender isn't about "biological function", it's about identity. Trans people aren't denying that they have the parts of their birth sex.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

For someone who's claiming your position is based on biological reality you sure are focused on linguistics and how cultures felt about gender.
[/quote]

Sex and gender are words that have existed for a long time.  The two words were used interchangeably until "sex" began to be associated with having sex.  The words have been synonyms for longer than anyone has been alive.  You claim that the words have different meanings, but I'm showing you that they do not.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Are you really this dense? I'm not even sure how to argue against something this stupid/willfully ignorant. There is a mental thing involved in ones identity that is different than physical sex that is most easily labeled gender.

I, like most Americans, grew up with the words used interchangeably.  I know that you identify as a gender other than the one you were born as.  That doesn't make you that gender.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I don't care if people are offended.  Racism wasn't wrong because people were offended by it, it was wrong because it was scientifically and morally wrong.

If "the core of who someone is" is a fantasy, then I shouldn't encourage them in that fantasy.  People who are inventing new genders have to prove that they are real.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What hurts people is genital mutilation (aka gender reassignment surgery).  Many people go on to regret it.  I hope that it isn't too late for you.  Look up Walt Heyer, he went through what you are going through.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

The only difference in the meaning of gender and sex is that gender sometimes has a linguistic function and sex sometimes refers to coitus.

I don't consider anyone's existence invalid.  I believe you exist.  I believe that non-binary people are real people.  I just think that their identities are not incorrect.

Either gender is biological, as I am saying, or it is a stereotype.  It is either something that is inborn and immutable, or it is determined by someone's behavior (a biological male who acts like a woman is a woman).  Obviously trans people reject the first option.  But they also reject the second.  There has to be an objective definition of gender other than "I say that I'm (male/female)."

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In common speech they mean the same thing and you know that.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Because not all identities are legitimate.

I know you think I hate you but I do not.  If I hated you I would encourage you down the path you are heading.  I am praying for you.

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Race actually is a social construct, but it is still ridiculous for Rachel Dolezal to identify as something she clearly isn't.  But at least what she identifies as exists, unlike genderqueer or two-spirit.

Gender, on the other hand is grounded in biology.  There is only one race and there are only two genders is something I like to say.

As for the studies, I've looked at a lot of them.  Some studies say one thing while other studies say something entirely different.

Also, adopted children aren't a separate category of people with different biological functions.

And that is irrelevant to the identity of trans people. You don't get to invalidate us because we use a word differently.

You don't get to force everyone to accept a new definition of a word.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Notice that everyone agreed that black people were black and that they were born that way and couldn't change.  The debate about gender identity has no similarities with America's oldest problem.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Of course not.  I don't deny that some people have gender dysphoria.  I just don't think that changing people's bodies and ignoring reality is the solution.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

If I'm supposed to take people's word on their gender, why can't you take me at my word when I saw I don't hate you?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Wasn't it Oxford that added the meaning "figuratively" to the word "literally"just because people use it the wrong way.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Rachel Dolezal.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

What evidence would you need?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I've used at least four different avatars since joining in 2014.  Are you referring to Kentucky, South Carolina, Hawaii, or China as a regressive hellhole or a bubble?  And I certainly do not live in a bubble.  I have a degree from a liberal arts college.  Now, it was a nominally Christian college but it was the type of college where the religion department would agree with you on social issues.  In fact, I only remember the science professors opposing gender ideology.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

I'm not afraid of transgender people.  The only thing I'm afraid of is having a student that wants to be referred to as "zie/zir/zimself" and then helps get me fired if I don't actually call him or her that.