Democrats win Iowa State House special election (user search)
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  Democrats win Iowa State House special election (search mode)
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Author Topic: Democrats win Iowa State House special election  (Read 9527 times)
Alcon
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« on: September 05, 2009, 03:26:53 AM »

Your Church opposes gay marriage. Gay marriage is legalized in your state. So your church gets labeled a "hate" group and shut down. Maybe you think you're God and don't care about the Church but I'd say that negatively affects the people who attend and work at that Church.

You personally oppose gay marriage and get sued by some tool as a hate criminal for "hurting their feelings" and YOU have to pay damages.

Please cite even a single incident of either of these events ever happening please.



I'd certainly say Patricia Mauceri, who was fired from her acting job this morning because she wouldn't say God created gays as they are, is feeling an adverse effect of the promotion of gay "marriage." Given she wasn't sued but as I said before, her freedom of speech has certainly been violated.


She was fired from her acting job (according to Google and her publicist) because she refused to play a character who approved of gays...

...so they found someone else to play that character instead.  No, that's not Freedom of Speech.  The government was not involved in any way, so it can't be.

And you're arguing that this is an inevitable slippery slope toward enforcing that everyone must believe that homosexuality is OK...?
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Alcon
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2009, 05:00:11 AM »

I think he's being polite and not vitriolic, I don't agree with him and I think his argument is often advanced by the bigoted but we need to give him a chance...at least from what I read in this topic.
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Alcon
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2009, 08:46:08 PM »

She played this character for a number of years from my understanding. It's not like it was some new gig she refused. She even tried to negotiate with the producers so she could be friendly toward the gay character, she simply wouldn't utter the line that God created gays to be gay and was fired.

So let me get this straight, as long as you aren't Congress (since they are the only ones explicitly mentioned by the first amendment) then in your opinion you can restrict freedom of speech to your hearts' content?

The U.S. Constitution does not apply to a private institution.  If you come into my business, I can kick you out for any reason -- maybe I think your shirt is ugly.  Is that reasonable?  No.  But it has nothing to do with Free Speech.  Maybe little-f/little-s free speech, sure.  But your assertion was:

Your Church opposes gay marriage. Gay marriage is legalized in your state. So your church gets labeled a "hate" group and shut down. Maybe you think you're God and don't care about the Church but I'd say that negatively affects the people who attend and work at that Church.

You're trying to prove a slippery slope about government enforcement against "hate groups" by taking a private economic decision.  If you are arguing that a cultural shift (which shows up through private cost-benefits decisions like that) will happen and the government will inevitably start to behave the way you're arguing, you need to prove that.  Because it didn't happen with race, so why sexual orientation?

Otherwise, it's like someone taking an example of an individual church denying membership to a sexually active gay person on the grounds of their lifestyle choice...would you use that to argue a slippery slope toward the prohibition of gayness?  What you're doing now makes no more sense than that.

(I do appreciate your civility, though, like I said you don't deserve to be treated as a troll.  But please don't take "this forum has a lot of Democrats" as an excuse to dismiss moral arguments.  For my part, I'm no wild-eyed Obama fan.  Tongue)
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Alcon
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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2009, 11:17:26 PM »

The irony of it all is that the authoritarian conservatives want the "freedom" to deny to others their liberty, initiating force against them. The double-irony is that most American 'individualists' are wont to go along with that.

Yea, because liberty is not at all defined in terms relating to human response...except when it is.  Like when you're advocating for expanding individualism.

booooring
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Alcon
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2009, 03:20:28 AM »
« Edited: September 06, 2009, 03:22:21 AM by Alcon »

So let me get this straight, as long as you aren't Congress (since they are the only ones explicitly mentioned by the first amendment) then in your opinion you can restrict freedom of speech to your hearts' content?

wtf?? Have you ever even read the constitution?

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's even more confusing to me because I never said anything about Congress, he was the one who brought it up.  So apparently he's read the Constitution, knows the "Congress" part and assumed I was alluding to that, and then...mocked it.

odd.
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Alcon
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Posts: 30,866
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« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 01:52:20 PM »
« Edited: September 07, 2009, 02:39:31 PM by Alcon »

Apparently Lief (and Alcon) are unfamiliar with the fourteenth amendment, that the Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly held prevents state and local governments from abridging the rights enumerated in the first amendment.

I did not realize that a soap opera was a branch of state and local government.  Thank you for the correction!

(again, as far as I know, shadowlands is the one who brought up "Congress," I just said that the First Amendment does not apply to the actions of private institutions.)
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