Iran tests new precision-guided ballistic missile

[MalaspinaGold]

Not that I want to wade into this quagmire, but since Ray has been dropping his inane conspiracy theories again:
http://forward.com/opinion/321927/an-alternative-vision-of-israeli-security/?attribution=author-article-listing-3-img

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[MalaspinaGold]

Not that I want to wade into this quagmire, but since Ray has been dropping his inane conspiracy theories again:
http://forward.com/opinion/321927/an-alternative-vision-of-israeli-security/?attribution=author-article-listing-3-img

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While it's possible this is true (it's from an editorial, although Barak's comments are out there if not 100% reliable) what are your thoughts on Article 10, Annex III, which commits the US to helping Iran fend off threats to its nuclear program?

That's not what Article 10 Annex III says, just so you know.

And I am SO sick and tired of people who think bringing up other "obscure genocides" as a gotcha to Jews is some sort of legitimate point.

10 million Africans murdered is "obscure".  The language you use to talk about non Jews...

Also, the US did not "stop the holocaust". The Allies stopped the regime perpetrating it, thus ending it, for separate reasons. The claim of anything else is a lie.

Amen. Schadenfreude is just proving that he's an antisemite.

Wow.  "Antisemite" because you want to treat Jews as equals of all people.  Amazing.

And what troops did the United States send to Congo to stop the even bigger genocide?  I am not talking about "stopping the holocaust" in absolute terms.  I'm talking about "stopping the holocaust" relative to "stopping every other holocaust."

Any sane objective person will tell you relative to every other aggrieved group the United States has done infinitely more for Israel than a long list of other people who were massacred.  Money is finite.  Every group whether they be black, native American, senior citizens, college students, corporations (they are people after all), Planned Parenthood, etc. has to justify their request relative to everyone else asking for money.  That is not a feature that is peculiar to Jews.

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

The irony is that I agree with DavidB on the reason why foreign aid should be ended (though I obviously think it should happen on a faster timetable than DavidB). That being said, you really aren't helping your case.

[MalaspinaGold]

The irony is that I agree with DavidB on the reason why DavidB should be ended (though I obviously think it should happen on a faster timetable than DavidB). That being said, you really aren't helping your case.

On the reason why I should be "ended"...? That's not so nice You're probably talking about US foreign aid to Israel and I'm not sure whether you really want a faster timetable than I do, but that's probably a bit too specific a discussion for this thread - my main point is that this decision should ideally be made in Jerusalem, not in Washington.

It's 9 in the morning and the middle of class, give me a break

[MalaspinaGold]

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.

I never said Israel is "owed" anything, you're making stuff up now.
And that's one concentration camp, against how many that were liberated by the Soviets? A dozen? Furthermore, if America really gave a finks about rescuing Jews, they would not have shut them out. As it is, sure, America closed down a few concentration camps. But acting like Jews should be "grateful" because some angry soldiers executed a few dozen sadists is pathetic revisionism in so many ways.

Also the obligatory LOLDailyMail.

[MalaspinaGold]

I mean, I'm not a Stalinist hack like TNF, but the US didn't end the Holocaust even accidentally. All the major death camps were liberated by the Soviets.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3067988/Let-s-Nazi-dogs-Enraged-horrors-Dachau-concentration-camp-arriving-liberate-WWII-prisoners-American-soldiers-executed-50-Germans-cold-blood-reveals-new-book.html

If those guys who committed a war crime out of sheer rage because of what they found at Dachau could read what is being said... I don't even know.  This Israel thing ceased making sense decades ago.

And regardless of how you want to spin and forget the tremendous sacrifices of our boys the fact remains even in your fanciful retelling of history they still did more than the US did for Congo.  Given how much we give Congo after the slaughter of 10 million Congolese and the $3 billion a year we give Israel... I am astonished anyone would have the guts to say Israel is "owed."  That's gratitude for you.  Time for the US taxpayer to get out of this game.

I never said Israel is "owed" anything, you're making stuff up now.
And that's one concentration camp, against how many that were liberated by the Soviets? A dozen? Furthermore, if America really gave a finks about rescuing Jews, they would not have shut them out. As it is, sure, America closed down a few concentration camps. But acting like Jews should be "grateful" because some angry soldiers executed a few dozen sadists is pathetic in so many ways.

Also the obligatory LOLDailyMail.

Its mostly the fault of geography that the Soviets liberated most of the camps.  They were mainly east of Berlin and in the way of the advancing Soviet army.  Im not really sure what America was supposed to do to get to them any earlier, they were deep behind German lines. Thats not to say that what America did was ok, more certainly could have been done for the Jews, but thats war.  Not every decision made is going to be perfect in the fog of war

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

[MalaspinaGold]

Ok.  To be fair, it was argued on the first page that the US somehow the mess in Israel by not stopping the Holocaust, and is therefore responsible for Israel now.  Thats also a stretch IMO, and how this whole debate started.  Anyways I don't think anyone here is going to change their minds so lets all leave in peace!

Well yes, that sounds like something RayGoldfield would say, and is obviously ridiculous. In my opinion, the world shouldn't owe Israel anything, and Israel shouldn't owe the world anything. It works out best for both sides that way.

[MalaspinaGold]

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.

That's because we were never at war with Congo.  Otherwise we never would have lifted a finger.

And I was of course opposed to Netanyahu's speech, you're really flailing wildly and missing aren't you?

[MalaspinaGold]

What I'm arguing against is Schadenfreude's pathetic revisionism that America did something other than the absolute minimum to win the war and therefore the Jews should feel grateful. It's condescending and patronizing in the absolute worst sort of way. It's the intellectual equivalent of arguing Stalin was good for the Jews because he liberated Auschwitz.

Is it a language problem?  Do you not understand the word "proportional"?  Or is this just an attempt not to answer the question?

Proportionally the United States did more to end the Holocaust than they did to end the massacre of the Congolese... which involved millions more lives.  In 2015 proportionally the United States gives way more foreign aid to Israel than Congo.  That is a fact.  How that entitles President Obama to being disrespected in his house on national TV by the Prime Minster of Israel I still don't understand.  The United States owes Israel nothing.  The Israelis should be grateful for $3 billion/yr and the perpetual vote on the security council.

That's because we were never at war with Congo.  Otherwise we never would have lifted a finger.

I think you mean at war with Belgium.

And it is irrelevant.  What actually happened was we gave proportionally more help to the Jews then and for DECADES after way more help to Israel.  This is not something that is in dispute.  We haven't been at war with Germany for over half a century and yet we are still giving Israel $2.9 billion/yr.

Guys I'm just astonished by this conversation because it is such a disproportionately large amount over half a century.  No one is advocating attacking Israel or throwing Israel to the wolves.  The only conversation I'm having is why not bring it in line with international norms?  Does that really make one an antisemite?

In another thread I actually suggested cutting off aid to Egypt.  Interestingly no one called me anti Muslim or anti Arab.  What are we to gather from that?

Again, as I noted before, US aid to Israel is largely a relic of the Cold War- when Israel and the Arab countries oriented to different blocs. Even that didn't really start until (IIRC) the 6-day war.