Do you oppose school vouchers under ALL circumstances?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes. School vouchers are always wrong and need to be completely banned.

Luckily even Utah has the sense to realize vouchers are epic fail.



https://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/state.php?year=2007&off=50&elect=0&fips=49&f=0

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Something I'd also support is not recognizing degrees from private schools as valid in hiring for public sector jobs and not allowing credits to be transferable to public schools. The private education system must be strangled and destroyed.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Because private schools are only instruments of class repression and religious indoctrination.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

School vouchers are actually one of the issues on which I break from most in my region of the political realm.  Personally, I think that a quality education is one of the most important things a person can ever receive in life, and if a public school in an area is beyond hope, I see no reason why the poor children in the area can't be made able to attend a better school, provided the school is not some religious indoctrination place (which, contrary to what appears to be popular belief, most private schools are not).

Wow, remember when I said you weren't a liberal and you argued against that and got all upset? Well here's another issue I'd use if that thread was still up to argue why you aren't a liberal.

You realize that your position is more right wing than over 60% of Utah voters?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

If that family cared about their kid, then under this situation they would've sent them to a public school.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

In saying that a Voucher scheme rubs me the wrong way for the simple reason that can be used by financial\governmental interests to expand their power over private schools.

More government control over private schools is a good thing as it makes it easier to shut them down. My belief basically is anything that hurts private schools is a good thing.

So it's alright to also hurt the students going to them? Your ideas are ridiculous and your prejudice disgusting. Take your idea of banning public sector jobs for people who have degrees from private schools. Suppose a low income family worked hard to save up as much money as they could to send their children to a prestigious private school in order to give those children a better future. (and yes, there are low income families that do this) One of those children gets a degree in law and wants to become a judge. Why would you deny someone the job they want simply because they went to a private school?

If that family cared about their kid, then under this situation they would've sent them to a public school.

Wow, you're an arrogant ass. Stop acting like you're all high and mighty and that you know everything. You assume the public schools they could have sent them to are good ones. Suppose they aren't. They sent their kids to a school with a good reputation while making personal sacrifices instead of sending them to a crappy school with no personal sacrifices made - how is that not caring about their kids?

If their kid was that bright, they would've gotten great grades in the public schools, regardless of what they were like, which would've made for easy admission to any public university.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Do you realize that I DON'T F**KING GIVE A SH*T WHAT OTHER PEOPLE'S POSITIONS ON AN ISSUE ARE?

I'm normal, by which I mean I actually make my own mind up rather than just going "DAH WHAT DO OTHER PEOPLE IN MY IDEOLOGY THINK I WILL AGREE WITH THEM BECAUSE I SURE DONT WANT A GUY ON THE INTERNET TO TELL ME WHAT MY IDEOLOGY IS".  Your ideology comes from your positions, not the other way around and is irrelevant in every way except to give a brief overview of the general facets of what you think.  At least, that's the case if you aren't f**king retarded.

Which is true, but that does affect your ideology, which I'll then argue is not liberal as I argued in this thread as you hold a far right wing position (as something that's so right wing it was rejected with over 60% in Utah sounds pretty far right to me)

And if you've noticed, I don't take every single position based on my ideology either.

Not necessarily.  There have been many documented cases where a child's ability for knowledge is far enough above what the school is offering that he or she is attending that the child actually was getting poor grades due to apathy.  The fact is that a school that is unconducive to learning drags down every student, regardless of intelligence.  Raw intelligence is not enough to succeed; proper motivation is at least as large a factor.

There are advanced placement public schools and classes. Besides private schools aren't necessarily harder, even if better ran, which I doubt is the case most of the time anyway.

BRTD,

You have a problem with taking your personal experiences and extrapolating them out and then you base your views on that.  Not only that, but you take a cut throat 100% black/white view on many issues that clearly are anything but black and white.

I spent 10 years in public schools, 3 in a right wing Christian school and 3 years at a private, Catholic institution and 1 year at a public foreign university.

I don't like being a pompous ass but I think my experience in various school systems is more diverse than yours.  So don't go around spewing out crap when you don't know what you're talking about.

OK, but didn't you say you are against vouchers earlier because they would defund public schools?

I think Gabu sums it up nicer than I could have. BRTD, your black and white notion of "public schools good, private schools bad" seems to be based on some irrational hatred that I can't even begin to guess the source of rather than on any hard facts or logical thought.

Because the thought of going to a private school when I was would a kid I find quite terrifying. Hell, I'd probably try to get kicked out if I was sent to a private school with all the horror stories I've heard, and the fact that I'd probably have to wear a uniform and not have open campus. Not that my parents would send me to one even if they could afford it, but still.

I would also note that contrary to what BRTD claimed and bearing in mind that Gabu is 100% correct on what he says about ideology, etc it IS liberal to support shcool vouchers. Claiming otherwise is ridiculous. You would have to be far-out socialist to come up with ideological arguments against voucher schools.

By that logic, the vast majority of Democrats and all of the presidential candidates running are far out socialists, as is over 60% of Utah voters. And the Reagan administration is one of the most liberal in recent years, as it made the biggest push for vouchers.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Which is true, but that does affect your ideology, which I'll then argue is not liberal as I argued in this thread as you hold a far right wing position (as something that's so right wing it was rejected with over 60% in Utah sounds pretty far right to me)

60% of Utah residents enjoy chocolate ice cream.

Clearly, chocolate is a right-wing ice cream.

Is ice cream a political issue?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think Gabu sums it up nicer than I could have. BRTD, your black and white notion of "public schools good, private schools bad" seems to be based on some irrational hatred that I can't even begin to guess the source of rather than on any hard facts or logical thought.

Because the thought of going to a private school when I was would a kid I find quite terrifying. Hell, I'd probably try to get kicked out if I was sent to a private school with all the horror stories I've heard, and the fact that I'd probably have to wear a uniform and not have open campus. Not that my parents would send me to one even if they could afford it, but still.

So you believe everything you hear? You are being highly irrational about this - so maybe you didn't like what you heard about the private schools in your area. So what? Does that mean that every last private school is bad and to be hated? Why is it that you can't seem to think of anything outside of black and white terms?

I hate the entire concept of private schools though (schools for rich people) and I would never want to go to a school with uniforms.

Don't forget, every single suburb in the country (if not the world) is an awful place to live, since that's what BRTD thought when he lived in one.

Actually I've never lived in a real suburb.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Which tend to be of two different types, A. small campuses that offer nowhere near the education opportunity of a larger school or B. large campuses in urban areas that might offer a choice of two in the entire state. If a kid wants a small school, with big opportunities and doesn't like the options in state, they have to pay private school money to go out of state.

Well most states have reciprocity agreements with their neighbors allowing for in-state tuition at any such state, in Minnesota you could also get in-state tuition in North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa or Wisconsin. Not necessarily the same in every state, but there's plenty of opportunities.

Even if one has to pay out-of-state tuition, it's about equal to private schools in the current system, so they aren't much of an improvement, and besides, it's not like it's hard to reestablish residence in another state and then get in-state tuition.

Obviously Virginia and California are exceptions here, Virginia as they have small private education quality schools at public prices and California as they have a large number of top notch public schools. Most states do not have this system at all. Yours included.

Wrong. The University of Minnesota is regarded as a top school. MSU is smaller, but has just as many programs as the U of M does. The same applies to all the other state universities, Winona, St. Cloud, Moorhead, Duluth...It's tough to see how someone who wants to go to school in Minnesota wouldn't have a choice.

Here's some facts:
1. Private schools educate students better, on average, than public schools.
2. The best private schools will always be better than the best public schools, which are in rich suburban areas.
3. Poor areas have horrible public schools 99.9% of the time.

1. It's not like there are any additional factors coming into effect here from the types of people likely to attend private schools.
2. The one private school in my hometown was a Catholic one, but it's GPA averages and standardized test scores were basically statistically tied with my high school, and the other one in the city. The public schooling system throughout most of the Midwest is so good actually that this is why vouchers are considered laughable and never brought up, because no one sees any point in them.
3. Inner city Detroit and St. Louis aren't 99.9% of the areas. Snowguy doesn't seem to have any problems with the public schools he went to, and he's from a very poor area. I can think of other poor areas throughout the Midwest with fine education systems.

What do you say to that kid who's extremely bright, but doesn't want to put up with their poor area's public school?

Go to an advanced placement school, or apply for a transfer to a better one, for which exceptional performance should be considered for. This is a better alternative to me than anything involving private schools.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

While it failed in every county, a definite correlation between the level of failure and presidential voting records in the Utah referendum exists. This California referendum on Proposition 38 (couldn't find a map, sorry): http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/sov/2000_general/measures.pdf shows similar results.

To say correlation does not matter is rather ridiculous. Does that mean that the results on an abortion referendum's correlation to voting patterns doesn't matter if abortion is a left/right issue?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

1-Agree with dropping NCLB, but not Dept of Education, although it needs reform. Teaching the test needs to go though.
2-Not sure how this works, so no comment.
3-Good idea, although too weak.
4-Great idea
5-Teachers deserve more pay, yes. Not necessarily much less job security, although it shouldn't contradict common sense.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What's ridiculous about it? Defining the liberal position on an issue is important in determining whether someone is liberal based on the positions they hold.