How forumites have evolved (or not) on equal marriage

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I never "evolved " on this, and I am older than 25.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Actually even when I was a college freshman I remember polls showing a majority of 18-29 in favor. It definitely wasn't opposed by my fellow classmates much either. I remember the Massachusetts decision being discussed only positively in 2004. All those people would be over 25 today.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Let me put it this way: If you went to a College Democrats meeting circa 2003, how many people present do you think would be against gay marriage, even if they supported civil unions?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Let me put it this way: If you went to one of my shows circa 2003, how many people present do you think would be against gay marriage, even if they supported civil unions? It'd probably be about equal to supporters of the Iraq War (that is essentially no one.)

Nobody cares.  Only you could turn gay marriage into a stupid discussion on one of your shows.

No the point is that there are tons of people over 25 who never "evolved" on this issue.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

And of course opebo, who has probably "evolved" more politically than any other poster never "evolved" on this issue, and he is quite a bit older than 25.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, why are you so focused on people who haven't evolved?  Do you think you're better than people who haven't always held your belief?  Are we somehow less entitled to hold these views?  I just don't understand why you feel the need to harp on this issue.

Really I just wish you'd admit your old position was silly and ridiculous contrived Moderate Heroism, for the reasons sbane mentioned. Which you seemed to be growing out of until I read that thing you said about Jimmy Carter which sent my opinion of you back to 2008 levels.

Do you at least admit your old position was completely f**king stupid, made no sense whatsoever and all the people who trashed you over it were 100% right?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Let me put it this way: If you went to one of my shows circa 2003, how many people present do you think would be against gay marriage, even if they supported civil unions? It'd probably be about equal to supporters of the Iraq War (that is essentially no one.)

Nobody cares.  Only you could turn gay marriage into a stupid discussion on one of your shows.

No the point is that there are tons of people over 25 who never "evolved" on this issue.

You could've made the same point without thinking, "ZOMG! I can throw in a sentence about hardcore shows!"

OK fine, imagine it's a College Democrats meeting instead then. Hell, I'll even edit it.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Let me put it this way: If you went to one of my shows circa 2003, how many people present do you think would be against gay marriage, even if they supported civil unions? It'd probably be about equal to supporters of the Iraq War (that is essentially no one.)

Nobody cares.  Only you could turn gay marriage into a stupid discussion on one of your shows.

No the point is that there are tons of people over 25 who never "evolved" on this issue.

Did you support full marriage equality in 1996, when DOMA was passed?

Yes actually, as much as a 12 year old could.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I never "evolved " on this, and I am older than 25.

So?  Is everyone expected to think the way you do?  Not everyone thinks and behaves according to rigid demographic trends.

You seem to think along American political trends.....

Exactly.

OK here's another example. Let's imagine a College Democrats meeting in 2008. How many people present would you expect to oppose gay marriage (actually oppose gay marriage, not take a pragmatic "I don't care if it's gay marriage or civil unions, either is fine by me" type stance.)? Even better, let's imagine it's in California, how many do you expect would support Prop 8? Because there was no logical position against gay marriage and against Prop 8, you can't say it's unneeded because gay marriage WAS legal without it unlike most states with such votes, and you can't argue it goes too far and bans other unions because it didn't and California's civil unions statute was left intact. If you support civil unions but not gay marriage, supporting Prop 8 is a no brainer. But I don't think you'd find many College Democrats voting for Obama and then yes on Prop 8. But this would've supposedly been Ben's vote and stance if he was born three years earlier and lived in California.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BRTD, is your contention that Ben actually holds liberal views in his heart, but lies about them to the forum, and publicly espouses "moderate hero" positions that he doesn't really believe in?  Or do you think that his desire to be a moderate hero has actually caused him to genuinely believe in moderate hero positions?

I think you're suggesting the former, but the latter strikes me as being at least as plausible.  People frequently talk themselves into believing weird things as a consequence of their tribal identification.  Especially if we're talking about the logical processes supporting the political positions of a 15 year old kid.

Probably a little bit of both. It's tough to see someone with Ben's background having any type of objection to gay marriage instilled in him so he probably started with no such objection, but because he didn't want to be seen as too radical he talked himself into coming up with his previous stance and then started to believe it. I did the same thing to myself with left wing positions when I got into the scene. But I think Sbane is dead on here. Politicians often take views that are silly and contradictory a lot because of political considerations, but they make no sense for anyone who isn't a politician with those considerations to take. One thing about being a Moderate Hero basically means trying to shoehorn yourself into these positions. Ben was also staunchly against legalizing marijuana for awhile which I'm sure he achieved by taking cognitive dissonance on all the evidence about how dangerous marijuana actually was.

For another example, try imagining a non-politician with the same set of positions on the issues and tendency to change on them as Mitt Romney. It doesn't make any sense, but I'm sure there were "moderate" Republicans out there who tried to justify to themselves that it was a good and logical set of positions that they agreed with because they were all good and moderate and not like those Tea Party extremists rather than just admitting Romney is a sleazy politician who changes his positions easily but that they'd vote for him anyway because of other concerns.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

But it may be Memphis, that a lot of folks just didn't think very deeply about the issue, and were not exposed to the back and forth, until the issue gained salience in the public square. One does not have the time to ponder every possible issue out there, and make an informed choice, while just carrying on with the life, and all of its challenges. We cannot all be armchair intellectuals all the time in other words.

Baloney. If people hadn't thought about it, they wouldn't have had an opinion at all. People were thinking a great deal about it in 2004 and they were taking their cues from others. Same as today.

And also remember, saying "I support civil unions, but not full marriage" like Ben did, also means in 2008 that one would've supported Prop 8 if they lived in California, which was most certainly not a minor issue that year.