Catholic Church in Austria falls apart - sort of

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I agree if the Catholic Church opted to allow married female priests tomorrow there wouldn't be much of an increase in practice in Austria. And probably not immediately in the US either. But I do think that would at least stave off the steady decay of the church, which is evidenced by the fact there are some churches that have effectively become ex-Catholic refuges, take the Episcopalians for example as Nathan noted. They've gone from the church of blueblood WASPs to liberals who like Catholic liturgy. I know that the type of churches I go to are also full of ex-Catholics, a fact which I've heard lampshaded a few times (in a non-insulting manner though.) Here's something worthy of note by the way:



But I think this type of action is effectively meaningless, the market for choice already exists. Why didn't these priests just go for Protestant ordination instead? Austria is still about 5% Protestant after all, and that number would be a lot higher if all these "Catholics" that had such issues would just leave and join a church that better reflects their values like so many American Catholics do. And if they don't want to and don't really practice Christianity anymore, fine, but then acting like you have any right to speak about the practices of any Christian denomination is pretty comical. It'd be like me demanding that that imans issue decrees allowing alcohol consumption amongst Muslims.

Rather than simply appealing for reforms, the dissidents declared they will break Church rules by giving communion to Protestants

Now this strikes me as similar to committing vandalism as a form of political protest. I think the Catholic church's exclusivist position on communion is pretty valid if you accept what they believe about it. I don't of course, and I would never seek to take communion if I ever somehow found myself in a Catholic church even if I was "allowed" to (note that there's nothing stopping me, it's not like they can card you or anything). And it doesn't have anything to do with the type of thing they're protesting against. BTW I have to add that the way they do communion at that "happy clappy" church I posted about earlier is one of the few things I dislike about it, it strikes me as almost disrespectful in a way.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Ah yeah I forgot about your church tax thing like Germany. If the "Evangelical Church" is the Lutherans that seems kind of silly to charge more, but I suppose they have fewer members and those might be a bit more dedicated.

How progressive is the Evangelical Church? If they are and tolerant like the Church of Sweden, or at least as much as the ELCA, I'd be willing to pay the tax. If not...well then hopefully there's some unregistered hipster church somewhere in Austria.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What I don't understand is why people who have no involvement in the Catholic Church at all would continue to remain on the rolls and pay the tax.

I most certainly would never register as Mormon, Muslim or Jewish as I am none, the "hipster church" was kind of a tongue-in-cheek joke. But aren't there evangelical groups that are un-registered? I know lots of Pentecostal types are really apprehensive toward the government (think of that Birther guy from Indiana with the horrible spelling) and would never register with them in any way. Not that I'd ever join one of THOSE churches, I'm thinking more of a liberal on the other side of the spectrum, liberal non-denominational churches usually will say something like they refuse to associate with a denomination because they're open to all people who wish to follow Christ, not just ones baptized or confirmed in a certain church, blah blah blah, (although most do have some type of loose affiliate with a mainline church because someone has to ordain their minister and process marriages and stuff like that. The one I go to on Easter and Christmas is like that but really loosely linked to the ELCA.) But of course those type of churches are pretty much just a US/Canadian and perhaps Australian-type thing...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Probably in Europe the trend is still influenced by a generational difference between old and young, so that believers drop as fast as old people die, but regarding young people the situation seems steady, and moreover the stereotype about education is not valid anymore:

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/11/study-more-educated-tend-to-be-more-religious-by-some-measures/

And in Italy if you take under 40 years old, there's the same phenomenon

Mmmm, did you read the article? It said they are more likely to join mainline churches.

I'm not all that surprised though, people who are more educated might be more likely to put more value on the community/social aspects of church.

I disagree with the bit about them joining the churches of the "upper and middle classes" though, rather it's more likely educated people are more likely to be aware of what various churches teach and are more likely to seek out a church that shares their values rather than just stick around in whatever they were raised in regardless of how much they disagree with it.

Certainly doesn't bode well for the Catholic church there. See my graph above too, note the real problem is that they aren't receiving many converts to replace the people they lose unlike the "none", evangelicals and mainliners...

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BTW, there is a huge difference, doctrinaly, between married priests and female priests. The latter is very problematic, at best, from the dogmatic standpoint: Catholic teachings would have to be seriously affected for that to ever happen.

The former (i.e., married priests) could happen tomorrow without any problem w/ anything Catholic church believes in religiously. Insisting on priestly celibacy is purely a matter of Church organization and governance, not of doctrine.  In fact, there are numerous married Catholic priests right now. For instance, most Greek Catholic priests in Ukraine (the largest Eastern rite church within Catholicicsm) are married, as are some priests who have converted from Anglicanism, and it causes no insurmountable problem within the Church. If tomorrow the pope were to declare that vows of celibacy are no longer required for ordination, at least as long as the man to be ordained is already married, it would, probably, make those already ordained upset and would imply a major change in the canon law, but it would be perfectly consistent with the the Church's teachings.

Most relevant post in this thread easily. The introduction of a female priest would completely change the meaning of the Catholic ritus, and would frankly, just be a ridiculous gesture meaning something like 'we don't really care either.' I certainly would consider leaving the church over such moves. 

Why, exactly, does the Catholic ritus have to be discriminatory to have meaning? Or rather, why is that portion of the Catholic ritus, as opposed to that of some other church, that attracts you to the church and makes you want to be a member connected to the fact that significant portions of the priesthood of my church would be laughed off if they were lucky and excommunicated if they weren't if they tried to express their callings in yours?

I agree with the point here. And this issue really is a dealbreaker for me, I won't go to a church that isn't completely egalitarian in this regard. But really, I can't have much sympathy for "Catholics" who just whine about it or women who seek ordination and get excommunicated. They can just convert and get ordained in the Episcopal church and the liberal Catholics remind me of Zell Miller whining about how the party left him and similar blue dogs. If the organization doesn't fit you, leave. The same applies of course to the conservative Anglicans Al loves to poke fun at and all that.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I should note that the Biblical basis for denying women ordination or a senior role in the church is very weak, it's basically taking literally some letters from Paul out of context and applying them to 2000 years later which they were obviously not intended for. 1 Timothy 2:11-12 is also pretty misunderstood due to the understandable fact that just about anyone today is going to read it from a 21st century mindset instead of a 1st century one.

In a nutshell: What Paul was actually trying to say was that women DID have the right to study scriptures and take an active role in the church, which at the time was a radically progressive and feminist idea, but that it would be inappropriate to give a woman a leadership role AT THAT TIME because the idea of allowing women to study and have any level of activity in the church was still a new idea and they hadn't achieved the level of education for leadership yet, just as someone with a PhD in a topic will be taken as more of an authority than an undergrad student in it. And the "quietness and full submission" was simply referring to that they should study in a quiet, peaceful and independent environment, not being pestered by others as to how they "should" interpret things, the original Greek text for "full submission" actually translates more closely to a state of peaceful serenity. And above all one can not discount the fact that in the first century the most controversial part of the statement "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission." would actually be the "A woman should learn" part.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I think you just summarized as well why I would never be Catholic even if they had married female priests, or perhaps more descriptively why I would never be Episcopalian even though I respect the very progressive stances many of their churches take. I've go to the point where even have clergy wearing ceremonial vestments (luckily some Lutheran churches don't do this anymore) or even worse dressed up suit and tie style like the Baptists/megachurches is too much.

I think this explains a lot as to why there aren't any non-purely nominal Catholics in my subculture as well...