Let's have a calm, polite and substantial discussion about gender and sex

[barfbag]

I don't really see what your point is.

My advice is not to buy into this hyper-sensitive college-campus version of feminism.  It just exists as a vehicle for people to make themselves into victims so they can blame other people for life being complicated and difficult.  In your personal life, blaming other people is a horrible, pathological life outlook that will only bring you misery.

Just try to be yourself, treat other people well and start dating some girls.

Ah yes college preaches feminism until weekend nights when girls are getting knocked up while drunk at parties. What hypocrisy!

[barfbag]

Let me just point out the obvious connection between your 'concerns' and your inability to get laid.   Of course its a chicken and egg thing, but I suspect if you'd order some testosterone shots from wherever Torie's getting them, or otherwise 'grow a pair', you'd get laid just fine.

When I was a lad your age, I had a string of very hot girlfriends.. and I wasn't athletic - in fact I was a little bit nerdy.  All it takes is being outgoing and hedonistic - enjoying life.  It is hard to imagine anything less attractive than a person who goes around worrying about 'right and wrong' all the time.

Opebo I've finally found something we agree on.

[barfbag]

Beet, before I respond, are you equivocating rape with not going out to bars & chaperones or am I misunderstanding you?

I am saying that telling women "don't go out to bars OR ELSE you'll get raped" isn't much better than excusing or denying rape in the first place. It's like the government telling us they have to repeal the Bill of Rights to "keep us safe from terrorists" nonsense. There are also usually (not saying YOU) ulterior motives there that are disguising themselves as concern for womens' well being, which is pretty much a staple of conservative discourse on women.

In a way though it's the opposite of the government saying they want to repeal the bill of rights to protect us from terrorists. If you think about it, someone saying not to go to bars alone is advocating personal responsibility. Avoid a bad situation rather than taking a chance and calling the government police to help you when there is a problem.

[barfbag]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

[barfbag]

Honestly, I don't have much to say about the idea that feminism is about raising women over men or that feminists don't care about any problems men have or w.e other than lol. The thing is, I've never encountered someone who actually believes these things irl. They're really just a vocal group on the internet, which makes sense because these kinds of chronically stupid misunderstandings can only happen from behind a computer screen. The bigger problem irl is general apathy, a sense that feminism is a past movement and why should we care nowadays, the so-called "post-feminism", which is very different from internet neckbeard anti-feminism.

This.

Personally, the fact that women are, in fact not equal anywhere in the world despite all of the efforts of the feminist movement is pretty obvious. Yes, there are issues- such as child custody, and education, life expectancy, and so on where women are favored over men, and these are important. And it's important that there are people who are working on them- but it makes sense that these people be men. After all, men are the most adversely affected by these issues, we are the ones who have the most stake and understanding there. So I understand why feminists, per se, don't work on these issues. And I think these exceptions are generally just that - they are still subordinate to the general kyriarchy of social relations, which men, (as defined by the kyriarchy itself - as are the whole concepts of masculine and feminine) are placed on a higher position than women. I would say it is less about men vs. women per se than analysis and social critique, in general. Which also extends to race, class, sexual orientation, disability, body and beauty standards, and so on. Actually, the older I get, the more firmly rooted I see that this hierarchy is in multiple ways.

When it comes to women my thoughts are that they have it so much better in the U.S. compared to the middle east that no one should complain. Men have it better here too so I'm not complaining either.

lol, cuz everyone in the US has it better than people in Somalia nobody in America should ever complain about anything amirite?

If any of us lived overseas or in a third world country we'd never complain again about things in the U.S. I've never met someone who lived elsewhere and wasn't thankful to be in our great nation. People just don't understand how good we have it. Instead they just want more.

[barfbag]

Feminism means nothing and everything. It means whatever a feminist wants it to mean.

You have posted a few times in this thread but I'm still not sure what the essence of your critique is. I apologize for not having found the time to address your longer post, though I fully agree with BK's remarks, which you have quite unfairly dismissed.

But seriously, why the animosity against feminism? What is it of its ideology or agenda which you actually don't embrace? It's easy to attack the label and talk about "egalitarianism" instead, but these are little battles over semantics. Feminism is, in fact, a movement dedicated to advance gender equality. It actually already encompasses much of the "critiques" directed toward it "men's rights" advocates (opposing gendered conscription or biases in dealing with divorce cases, for example). Now, the point is that, in 95% of cases, patriarchy works to the benefits of men and to the disadvantages of women. Would you deny this? IMO, this provides a fairly logical reason why the movement would call itself feminist.

Feminism in regards to 21st century politics really doesn't have an exact definition. However, I happen to be a feminist theologian regarding the New Testament and early Christianity. There have been a lot of negative stereotypes about women in the church going back to the earliest sects of Christianity. Women were more accepted among those who became labeled as Gnostics who eventually were labeled as heretics.