Which country has the best Health Care System?

[Richard]

The US has the most advanced medical care in the world.

That's nice for the millionaires that can afford it.

You don't need to be a milionaire.  Quit exaggerating.  You're asking for opinions, so don't sh**t on one.

I agree.  As a Canadian, we have probably the worst one of all industrialized nations.  I would go south of the border for serious conditions.  The United States have by far the best health care system in the world.  After some tort reforms, it will be even more affordable.

[Richard]

Nobody can contend that America has the best, because half the people in the United States can't afford healthcare.

I would like you to cite some data on this assumption you're making, because I'm calling bullsh**t now.

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That is why you buy insurance.

[Richard]

As a worker in the UK National Health Service, I was wondering what the views are on which country has the best health care system and which is the best way of funding such a system?

For those who are unaware, the UK NHS is funded through general taxation and national insurance (really further taxation). In 2005 the cost of the NHS is due to be approx $144 Bn. (This is about 7-8% GDP compared with Germany and France who spend in excess of 10% GDP).

The founding principles of the NHS were that healthcare (second to none) would be provided equitably and equally to the whole population of the UK and that it would be free on demand.

The reality of healthcare in the UK has unfortunately not lived up to these principles. Increasing costs has put an increasing strain on budgets and consequently healthcare has become increasingly mediocre in comparison with other European countries and North America.

Although, healthcare is still free on delivery, I feel that the quality of this healthcare is suspect.

In the UK, discussion of the future of the NHS is a very emotive issue. If any political party seriously suggests removing the "free on delivery" ethos...........the party effectively commits politcal suicide.

Perhaps someone could enlighten me on how the US, Canadian and other European systems works and suggest a way forward for healthcare, as I believe the cost and quality of healthcare will become an increasingly important issue!

How does chronic illnesses and prescription drugs work?  Who pays?  And if you're getting a government-paid-for hip replacement, will they use the most advanced alloy available on the market, or do they use the cheapest plastic like Canada does?

[Richard]

Nobody can contend that America has the best, because half the people in the United States can't afford healthcare.

I would like you to cite some data on this assumption you're making, because I'm calling bullsh**t now.

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That is why you buy insurance.

Don't play stupid, it isn't very becoming. And not everyone can afford sky high insurance costs.

I would like to see some sources that state that 150,000,000 Americans can't afford health care.

And you're right: Not everyone can afford sky high insurance costs.  But not all insurance is sky high, and with tort reform coming it will go lower.

[Richard]

I know for a fact that operations in the U.S. usually cost somewhere in the range of 15,000-100,000 USD. That's all I need to say.

So?  The goal of insurance companies is to spread the risk.  I'm an actuary you know...  Do you know how insurance works?

And if you think it is free in the UK you're deluding yourself.  What would cost $15,000 here would cost the government $150,000 there.

And lastly, do you really think that every person needs a $50,000 operation in his life?  No.  It doesn't work that way.  That is why insurance works.

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Strike 2 for me.  You lost again.

[Richard]

How does chronic illnesses and prescription drugs work?  Who pays?

As I have a chronic illness and have to use prescription drugs for it...

The NHS is free at the point of use and funded through taxation. There's no insurance, means tests or anything like that. You get a letter telling you that you have an appointment of the Umpteenth of Upmtember or whatever and you turn up at the hospital on that date. You don't pay anything. Simple.
Prescription drugs are more complicated: if you have a chronic illness or whatever, they're free. If it's for something like a cold there's a small fee paid to the chemist.
Pretty much all drugs are generics.

Interesting.  So no newer drugs?  And why do you have to pay for something for a cold?  I thought this was a free system for everyone?

What about technology?  My example again: If you get a hip replacement, do you get the latest greatest alloy from the United States or do they use the cheapest possible plastic?

And say you want laser surgery for your eyes?  Is that paid for?

What about dental reconstruction because you were in an accident and shattered your jaw?

Or orthodontists?  Do they pay for alternative forms of therapy?  Reflexology, acupuncture, homeopathy?  Chiropracterers?  Can I go and see one every week for 2 hours because I'm feeling suicidal and the government pays for it?

What about glasses?  Contact lenses?

Sorry about all these questions, but I'm not very familiar with the UK's medical system.

[Richard]

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What good is a health care system that doesn't even take care of people's eye sight?

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So once again, it isn't free?  You may end up unable to eat and in order to get that fixed you have to pay?

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Oh dear.

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More oh dear.


So actually the parts that you're most likely to use, dentists, eye doctors, and some everyday medication is NOT free?  And the part you're least likely to use is free?

Ym....

[Richard]

Ok UK'ers, please stop pretending your 'socialist' medicine actually works, your not fooling us anymore.

Hey, guess what, it does work. I know firsthand that it works. Maybe it isn't perfect, but at least I can afford it. I'm glad to know that if I get cancer and need treatment, I can get that. I'm glad to know that a poor single mother can get treatment for one of her kids without having to let the others starve.

You're all cold, heartless bastards.

You mean to say if you were in the United States you'd be so poor you'd be unable to afford it?  Gee.  Now I see why you're a socialist.

[Richard]

Are you implying that everyone who isn't of means is a socialist? I'm so glad you don't live here.

I'm saying everyone who isn't of means that demands other people's money is a socialist.  You're one of them it seems.

And don't worry, I'm glad I don't live there either.

[Richard]

I don't demand others money. I've never recieved financial assistance in my life.

Ever used your health service?  Guess what?  You used other people's money.

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Ask your family or friends.  Keep your hands off my money.  I worked to earn it, and it is my right to spend it as I want to.

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I was born with money?  OK buckwheat, lets get a few things straight.  I'm a student.  I don't own a car.  Or a house.  I am co-op meaning I get to earn enough money the work semester to pay off the next semester's tuition, books, accomodation, and stuff.  And I have some scholarships.  That is it.  I'm not rich.  And I don't make a lot of money.  But I'm self sufficient.  And I work hard.

I really don't know where you get this from.  From thin air it seems.

[Richard]

It's called D-E-M-O-C-R-A-C-Y.

Lets take a vote.  Should the government give every person $5,000?

a) Yes
b) No


Do you see a problem with this?

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The people of Britian are stupid, and their country is going down the toilet.  The immigration lines to the United States are full.

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Dear me.  I have never claimed welfare, and I've never gotten any.  Second, I said that those that are poor that DEMAND OTHER PEOPLE's MONEY are parasites and shouldn't vote.  I'm not rich, but I don't demand other people's money.  Third, there is nothing wrong with being poor.  It is wrong to think you're entitled to someone else's money.

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I have not.  We don't have family doctors, probably because there ain't any.  I've never been to the hospital in Canada.  I go to the dentist but I pay for it.  I went to the eye doctor but I paid for that too.  And I don't do this whole drugs thing.

[Richard]

What does the govt giving everyone 5000 dollars have to do with anything?

Connect the dots.  It isn't hard.  You spelt out democracy as the reason for redistributing the wealth.  Now lets exercise democratic principles and do that poll.  Hell, lets make it $1,000,000.

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That is nice.  It is also nice that you've decided to completely ignore the fact that the UK, Europe, and the United States uses different methods to build statistics, especially unemployment rate.  I do not understand how you can even think of making such a comparison unless you move to common ground and adjust the figures for different indicators used.

Crime rate.  Well, lets see.  That is relative.  Again, you're mixing statistics.  You need to quit doing that.  What crime are you talking about?  Homicides?  True.  Your homicide rate is lower.  Burglary?  False.  Your burglary rate is incredibly high compared to the United States.  It is very mixed.  A generalization is very difficult to make and I can easily attack you on that.

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I called you a socialist because you stated that you'd be unable to afford health care in the United States and that you feel you're entitled to it.  That is a socialist.  Not the size of your bank acount.  Soros is a socialist, but he is rich.

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In Canada.  I wasn't born in Canada, and I've been here only 4 years.  I'm not a liar.  Please do not accuse me of things you have no knowledge of.

[Richard]

4 years? Why then did you come to Canada, a place you consider terrible? What rathole did you come from where insanity like yours is commonplace?

My family and I are refugees.  We came from a much worse place that had a fascist government in place.  Which is one reason why I hate fascism and communism so much.

Canada is a nice country, but it has a terrible social welfare system that encourages people to be lazy and irresponsible.  People are not held accountable for their actions.

[Richard]

Which country is that?

It really isn't your business.

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"taking in" is hardly a socialist tradition.  Look at the Soviet Union and North Korea.

We came to Canada because it is the first place my dad got a job.

[Richard]

You're the one that brought it up smartass.

The Soviet Union and North Korea aren't socialist. They believe in government run economies, not mixed economies. The UK is a social democrat nation, not a socialist one by the way.

Yes they are socialist.  And so is Cuba.  And the UK is socialist too.  It just so happens that the UK is less socialist than the three of them.  For the time being.

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Living with your family seems odd?

[Richard]

Oh, I see you've changed your profile to say your 21. Nice.

Yes, I corrected it.  I never put my real birthdate in registrations.  The one I have in now is fictious, but the year is correct.  I'm still in university, so that should have ticked you off.  Sorry about that.

[Richard]

No, you don't know the differance between socialism and communism. That's sad.

There is no difference between communism and socialism, except in the means of achieving the same ultimate end: communism proposes to enslave men by force, socialism--by vote. It is merely the difference between murder and suicide.

Who said that?

[Richard]

More on socialism and communism:


"The essential characteristic of socialism is the denial of individual property rights; under socialism, the right to property (which is the right of use and disposal) is vested in 'society as a whole,' i.e., in the collective, with production and distribution controlled by the state, i.e., by the government.

"Socialism may be established by force, as in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics--or by vote, as in Nazi (National Socialist) Germany. The degree of socialization may be total, as in Russia--or partial, as in England. Theoretically, the differences are superficial; practically, they are only a matter of time. The basic principle, in all cases, is the same.

"The alleged goals of socialism were: the abolition of poverty, the achievement of general prosperity, progress, peace and human brotherhood. The results have been a terrifying failure--terrifying, that is, if one's motive is men's welfare.

"Instead of prosperity, socialism has brought economic paralysis and/or collapse to every country that tried it. The degree of socialization has been the degree of disaster. The consequences have varied accordingly."



She is brilliant.

[Richard]

Of course the commie WHO will point to other commie nations and say "look they have the best healthcare system in the world."

[Richard]

What makes you think only the rich benefit? You seem to think that we have a few rich people here and that everyone else is a dirt-poor serf. That's not the case. I am not aware of anyone starving to death in America. And I think it would be very rare to find people dying because they were denied medical treatment. Although, perhaps in some of the countries with socialized medicine people die while on the waiting list for treatment.

Americans have a high standard of living. Most families have at least one car and many have mulitple cars. Most people live in nice housing.
Most people have plenty of food to eat. In fact the do-gooders are now very concerned about a "crisis of obesity" and they never even mention starvation as a problem here. That means most people suffer from too much food rather than not enough".
Most families have at least one TV and probably several.
Most people have at least some type of health care coverage.
There are many middle class families who own a home in the city and a cottage by a lake or in the mountains. These aren't rich people. They are just average people.
Many Americans have a swimmimg pool in the back yard, and probably most Americans could afford one if they wanted it.
We have every imaginable type of household appliance, Washing machines, Dryers, Dishwashers, Refrigerators ( frequently more than one) air conditioners, PCs, lawn mowers, snowblowers. You name it.

Those of us who aren't rich appreciate your concern for us, but we aren't doing all that bad. However, if you would like to make a donation, I'm sure we'll be happy to accept it. 

Okay, but it is a fact that a great part of American live under poverty rate, more than in Europe certainly. In Europe, we help these people has to leave poverty, in the United States not. it's what is unjust I think.

That is because the statistical curve is different.  A greater portion of Americans may live below the poverty rate, defined as the bottom x% of the income distribution.  However, the entire curve shifts when comparing European and American poverty rates.  This basically means:  The United States has more "poor" people, but what they define as poor is still richer than European "poor" and is borderlining European middle class.  "Poor" people in the United States can afford to own a house, own two cars, and have cable TV.  You do not see this in Europe.

Don't abuse and rape statistics to suit your purpose.  I'm a statistics major and hate to see people twist it for their agenda without actually knowing what they're talking about.

[Richard]

I object to other people deciding how to spend my money.  It you have to have a social health care system, make it so that people can VOLUNTEER to donate.  Mandatory donations to it = stealing.

[Richard]

I object to other people deciding how to spend my money.  It you have to have a social health care system, make it so that people can VOLUNTEER to donate.  Mandatory donations to it = stealing.

Maybe...but if it is voted on and a majority of [whoever votes - ie: Congress, the public] approves, then I think it's a go.  Congress approves things all the time that a certain segment of society may not want but has to accept anyway.

I say we should deal with this issue openly and honestly, though - too many politicians are scared to discuss it.  Let them take a stand, let the public vote to re-elect their congressmen (or exchange them for ones with different ideas), and then have Congress make a decision.  There's been too much pushing this issue to the back burner.

Bill 1 of 2005:  Congress will hereby pay every citizen $1,000,000 on January 31, 2005.



See a problem here?  You can't vote away other people's rights.  Sorry.

[Richard]

Bill 1 of 2005:  Congress will hereby pay every citizen $1,000,000 on January 31, 2005.



See a problem here?  You can't vote away other people's rights.  Sorry.

Yeah...problem is you just made that up.  Providing basic health care is on a scale a little bit different than turning Congress into a massive Publisher's Clearing House, I think.

It is not.  It is a bunch of people voting to steal money from certain individuals and give it to other individuals.  That is criminal.  This is why I'm opposed to income tax and sales tax.

[Richard]

It is not.  It is a bunch of people voting to steal money from certain individuals and give it to other individuals.  That is criminal.  This is why I'm opposed to income tax and sales tax.

And the every other law on the books is practically criminal, too, by that definition - it doesn't just stop at money.

Look, Richius, I'm not going to argue with you about this any more; you're too stuborn and you would degenerate into name-calling and ridiculous arguments; I'm not in the mood for that.  I'm just more charitable-minded, I guess, and I happen to think that majority rules.  Congress and the rest of us should be willing to create a system to help the less fortunate. 

Fine.  Just don't involve me, or anyone that does not want to go along.  Let us donate to private charities, and allow us to work for $1 an hour as a paramedic.  Yeah.  Guess what.  I want to get paid $1 per hour as a volunteer paramedic, but it is illegal here in Ontario due to minimum wage laws.  Screw that.  Due to that stupid law, I can't give people cheap medical attention and care.

[Richard]

It is not.  It is a bunch of people voting to steal money from certain individuals and give it to other individuals.  That is criminal.  This is why I'm opposed to income tax and sales tax.

And then every other law on the books is practically criminal, too, by that definition - it doesn't just stop at money.

Look, Richius, I'm not going to argue with you about this any more; you're too stuborn and you would degenerate into name-calling and ridiculous arguments; I'm not in the mood for that.  I'm just more charitable-minded, I guess, and I happen to think that majority rules.  Congress and the rest of us should be willing to create a system to help the less fortunate. 

So 50% plus one could just vote to kill the other 49,9999999999999%?

That is his basic principle.  The majority is voting away the rights of the minority.  This is what Hitler did, and what is currently happening with social security and national health care in Canada.