Vatican hypocrisy

[J-Mann]

Come on, folks, it's not like the Pope went out last week and bought the building he lives in.  That would be materialistic, but the Vatican has been there for hundreds of years, and the Church itself has been collecting wealth for thousands.  And in spite of being surrounded by such oppulence, I guarantee you that their not hoarding gifts inside St. Peter's -- they're actually practicing the true meaning of the holiday.  That's what he's talking about; when people focus too much on the materialism and forget the meaning.

Much of what the Church has today is leftover from an era where it was a very greedy, materialistic organization.  Most of what it has, though, are assets like buildings, art and land, not cash.

[J-Mann]

So unless you're a beggar with no possessions whatsoever, you're precluded from speaking about charity?  I find that a little hard to believe.  The Vatican is going to no more sell St. Peter's brick by brick than any of us are going to get rid of all our property just so we can agree that materialism is not a good thing.  Like I said, their assets are not cash-in-hand -- most of the Vatican's riches are in things that will likely never be sold because of tradition, they were gifts, etc.

I think we're getting off track, here.  The Pope was talking about the materialism overshadowing the season; that's the real lesson in what he was saying, not, "you shouldn't own anything."  I guarantee you that in the Vatican, they're practicing Christmas for the right reasons in spite of all the wealth around them; that's not hypocrisy -- that's an incredible show of faith and will power, if you ask me.

[J-Mann]

Amen, Soulty.

[J-Mann]

Again, what relevance does 'cultural heritage' have to the teachings of the Church?  Also, I sincerely hope I am never asked for a donation for any cause by a Catholic priest.  It's not like they're short of cash.

They've very short on cash.  They neither get paid much nor does the Vatican pump their parishes full of cash.  This has been explained.  The Vatican itself may be worth billions of dollars, but that's its infrastructure and art, etc., not cash.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, let me put it this way -- it'd be like selling the White House to help balance the budget.  It's not going to happen.  "Ooh" and "ahh" doesn't have much to do with it -- it's a proud history that we're interested in taking care of.

[J-Mann]

Christ tells us to pray for one another.  Paul reiterates this message again, and again, and again, and again (Romans 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 3:25) when he specifically asks for other people to pray for him (intercede) on his behalf, to God.  Paul also tells others that he, and his followers always pray from them (2 Thess 1:11).  He also tells Timothy to offer prays and petitions for all men (1 Tim 2:1-7).

cannot be used to imply that we can escape our sins by directing prayers to anyone but the Person who is capable of forgiving them. Elijah can't forgive our sins. Neither can Paul, or anyone else in Heaven but Jesus.

You're essentially right about this, but I think you're completely mischaracterizing how and why Catholics ask Saints for intercession. We absolutely don't ask a Saint for anything directly, whether that be a miracle, forgiveness, etc. We do not pray to them.  We do ask noted Saints to pray for us. 

Saints generally lived a model life, served as examples, or overcame suffering through faith. Like any living person who has overcome tribulation or serves as a role model, we hold up Saints as the highest examples of our faith in action.  When met with an obstacle or when we need guidance, we can always turn to our brothers and sisters in the faith to help us and pray for us, whether they are living or dead.

Always we ask Saints to pray to God for us -- Catholics do not believe that Saints themselves are lesser gods, but we do trust them to intercede on our behalf. Catholics normally face fierce opposition to our adoration of Saints by Protestants who misunderstand their role in our faith.  Those very same Protestants often turn to their friends and family and ask for their prayers. In the same manner, we seek the prayers of the Saints. We believe that their roles in teaching and guiding humanity did not end at their deaths -- they are still taking an active role in watching mankind and praying for us.