Talk Elections

General Politics => U.S. General Discussion => Topic started by: Dr Oz Lost Party! on February 19, 2018, 10:29:28 AM



Title: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Dr Oz Lost Party! on February 19, 2018, 10:29:28 AM
Democrat, Independent, AND Republican scholars all rank Trump as being one of the worst Presidents in history.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/19/opinion/how-does-trump-stack-up-against-the-best-and-worst-presidents.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/19/opinion/how-does-trump-stack-up-against-the-best-and-worst-presidents.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region)

In a question regarding the possibility of a new face on Mt. Rushmore, 66% of respondents chose FDR. He was favorited among Democrats, Independents, and Republicans.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: TPIG on February 19, 2018, 10:35:15 AM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: Dr Oz Lost Party! on February 19, 2018, 10:37:40 AM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

The article mentions that there is still three years for him to improve. This is just how he ranks currently.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Inmate Trump on February 19, 2018, 10:44:28 AM
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
ahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Hate to say I told you so, but...I told you so.

I’d also like to say that the American electorate who put him there are among the worst generation, making their grandparents rotate in their graves.  To the Trump voters, I give a giant F you and a middle finger.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: KingSweden on February 19, 2018, 10:44:30 AM
Hard to see how he’s worse than James Buchanan or Warren Harding, even considering everything that’s gone wrong.

Top Five worst, though, no argument from me there.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: TPIG on February 19, 2018, 10:47:30 AM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

The article mentions that there is still three years for him to improve. This is just how he ranks currently.

Ah ok. I ran out of my free monthly articles, so I was operating on assumptions.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: Illiniwek on February 19, 2018, 10:53:23 AM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

The article mentions that there is still three years for him to improve. This is just how he ranks currently.

Ah ok. I ran out of my free monthly articles, so I was operating on assumptions.

If you use a "Private Window" in Safari or "Incognito Window" in Chrome (idk the Firefox or Edge equivalents) you can get around the monthly limits.


Looks like a Freedom List to me. Surprised how high Nixon is ranking these days, but I'm sorta ok with it.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Joey1996 on February 19, 2018, 11:19:10 AM
Stupid and wrong


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on February 19, 2018, 12:42:27 PM
Hard to see how he’s worse than James Buchanan or Warren Harding, even considering everything that’s gone wrong.

Top Five worst, though, no argument from me there.


He should be up with Warren Harding but neither of them should be considered worse than


Buchanan
Pierce
Andrew Johnson
Hoover


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 19, 2018, 12:59:09 PM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

The article mentions that there is still three years for him to improve. This is just how he ranks currently.

...and three years of opportunity for an economic meltdown, a scandal that he cannot shake, or an international disaster. In view of his bloated ego and his refractory personality, I cannot expect him to meet any major challenge effectively. We have all seen his style of management -- "My Way or the Highway", and it does not work in Washington.   

Note this comes almost ten years after a much-maligned President -- Dubya -- left office with the Presidency in tatters. So he i s being compared to Dubya, one of the least effective Presidents ever.

His character is well established, and I doubt that it will improve or that Americans will like it any more. The only changes of character that one sees in people of President Trump's age come from increasing debility of mind.   


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Pandaguineapig on February 19, 2018, 01:48:21 PM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Unironic Kamala Harris for President Supporter on February 19, 2018, 01:55:20 PM
Trump is no worse than his contemporaries.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Inmate Trump on February 19, 2018, 01:58:58 PM
Trump is no worse than his contemporaries.

If you truly believe that then you have no knowledge of the presidency as it has been in modern history.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: junior chįmp on February 19, 2018, 02:04:37 PM
All disjunctive presidents that preside before a major realignment rank last on that list. Trump is finished and he's taking the GOP with him


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on February 19, 2018, 02:35:10 PM
Hey, if you take only the Republican scholars into account, Donald Trump ranks 40th... beating Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, and James Buchanan. Better than nothing. :P  All three political camps of scholars agree that Donald Trump is the worst post-1900 president though.


Oh, and Barack Obama is apparently now the 8th best president in American history, roughly on par with Eisenhower and Reagan. (The Republican scholars place him at 16th, where he still beats John Adams, James Madison, James Monroe and from the more contemporary office-holders JFK, LBJ, Nixon, Ford, and GWB.)


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself on February 19, 2018, 02:46:25 PM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era
The thing is that there isn't a fundamental fault line as strong as slavery to plunge the nation into war right now.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: MASHED POTATOES. VOTE! on February 19, 2018, 02:47:53 PM
After one year? Junk rating.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Inmate Trump on February 19, 2018, 02:50:29 PM

It clearly states that there are three more years and that this ranking is where he stands RIGHT NOW.

Not hard to comprehend.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: BlueSwan on February 19, 2018, 02:53:15 PM
Somewhat surprised by the low ranking of Kennedy. The Cuban Missile Crisis alone ought to place him higher.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on February 19, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era
The thing is that there isn't a fundamental fault line as strong as slavery to plunge the nation into war right now.

Just like with the immediate pre-civil war presidents, Donald Trump could be accused in the future that he did most of his damage through inaction.

He doesn't do anything against climate change. He ignores (and ridicules) warnings of future Russian cyber-attacks. He's passive on gun violence etc.

Especially the climate change thing could be seen as roughly comparable to the Civil war fifty years from now or so.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Pandaguineapig on February 19, 2018, 02:58:12 PM

It clearly states that there are three more years and that this ranking is where he stands RIGHT NOW.

Not hard to comprehend.
Yeah still junk, rating a president needs hindsight that can take 25-50 years. Eisenhower and Truman were viewed as failed presidents in the years after they left office


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin on February 19, 2018, 03:08:14 PM

It clearly states that there are three more years and that this ranking is where he stands RIGHT NOW.

Not hard to comprehend.

This says more about bias than anything else, I hate to say. Yes, Kim Jong Trump (R-Moscow) is a disgusting excuse for a human being. And his politics are loathsome, and he looks grossly incompetent. But history is, by definition, judged on outcomes.

I think he will end up at the bottom of the heap. But if his presidency ended today, he would be remembered  as wracked by petty scandals, presidential faux pas and maybe the tax bill. It would likely leave him in the bottom quintile, but hardly worst.

There are Presidents (Lincoln and Hoover among them) where the nation was an absolute disaster at this point in their term. I think so-called 'President' Trump (R-Moscow) is a drunk driver steering us towards a firey crash, but if we never get there, he remains just a dangerous and despicable fool, not the war criminal and nation-wrecker he wants to be.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Alabama_Indy10 on February 19, 2018, 03:57:12 PM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era
The thing is that there isn't a fundamental fault line as strong as slavery to plunge the nation into war right now.

I thought you were gonna quit posting.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: dw93 on February 19, 2018, 04:04:32 PM
They shouldn't have included Trump and I say that as a staunch critic of Trump's. If I had to rank his Presidency thus far, it would be in the bottom 10, but certainly not below Pierce's, Buchanan's, or Andrew Johnson's.

With that said, let's move on to other Presidents. Obama doesn't deserve to be in the Top 10. He left the Democratic party in its' worst position since before the Great Depression, Income inequality sky rocketed on his watch despite a recovery from the Great Recession, and his Foreign Policy, while an improvement from Bush/Cheney's and while it's looking better and better every day compared to Trump's, it still wasn't without massive flaws. Reagan is also undeserving of the Top 10 as well. His response to AIDS was disgraceful, he set a bad precedent when it comes to taxes and spending and it was on his watch that the Debt and Deficit began to spiral out of control. His giving rise to the religious right was also damaging as well. It's also nice to see Wilson and Kennedy falling out of the top 10 as well, although LOL at Republicans ranking GW Bush over JFK in their ranking, and Speaking of GW Bush, he was NOT a better President than Richard Nixon. It's sad that even Democrats now rank him above Nixon.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 19, 2018, 04:28:23 PM
Somewhat surprised by the low ranking of Kennedy. The Cuban Missile Crisis alone ought to place him higher.

Sexcapades might be taking down his rating. Public attitudes toward reckless fornication by the rich and powerful have changed dramatically in the last few months. 


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: SWE on February 19, 2018, 04:36:27 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Pandaguineapig on February 19, 2018, 04:38:49 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: dw93 on February 19, 2018, 04:40:45 PM
Somewhat surprised by the low ranking of Kennedy. The Cuban Missile Crisis alone ought to place him higher.

Sexcapades might be taking down his rating. Public attitudes toward reckless fornication by the rich and powerful have changed dramatically in the last few months. 

Not to mention he has very little if any legislative accomplishments and he was the one that sent the first combat troops into Vietnam.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, once the aurora of Camelot and the belief of "What would've/could've Been" fades, Kennedy's standing with the public and scholars will fall.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 19, 2018, 04:41:29 PM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era

But those stupid and nasty things that offend American sensibilities might be even harsher insults elsewhere.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Gass3268 on February 19, 2018, 04:49:29 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

Which is why Obama jump up 10 spots from 2014 and is now better than Reagan.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: OSR stands with Israel on February 19, 2018, 04:55:15 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

Which is why Obama jump up 10 spots from 2014 and is now better than Reagan.
Only Democratic analysts thought that, independents thought Reagan was better.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Gass3268 on February 19, 2018, 05:04:05 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

Which is why Obama jump up 10 spots from 2014 and is now better than Reagan.
Only Democratic analysts thought that, independents thought Reagan was better.

On the overall list, Obama is now 8th and Reagan is 9th.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: Tartarus Sauce on February 19, 2018, 05:18:27 PM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

Usually not, but there is little reason to believe somebody like Trump will change due to new inputs and experiences. What you see now is all we're gonna get.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: fluffypanther19 on February 19, 2018, 05:31:43 PM
They shouldn't have included Trump and I say that as a staunch critic of Trump's. If I had to rank his Presidency thus far, it would be in the bottom 10, but certainly not below Pierce's, Buchanan's, or Andrew Johnson's.

With that said, let's move on to other Presidents. Obama doesn't deserve to be in the Top 10. He left the Democratic party in its' worst position since before the Great Depression, Income inequality sky rocketed on his watch despite a recovery from the Great Recession, and his Foreign Policy, while an improvement from Bush/Cheney's and while it's looking better and better every day compared to Trump's, it still wasn't without massive flaws. Reagan is also undeserving of the Top 10 as well. His response to AIDS was disgraceful, he set a bad precedent when it comes to taxes and spending and it was on his watch that the Debt and Deficit began to spiral out of control. His giving rise to the religious right was also damaging as well. It's also nice to see Wilson and Kennedy falling out of the top 10 as well, although LOL at Republicans ranking GW Bush over JFK in their ranking, and Speaking of GW Bush, he was NOT a better President than Richard Nixon. It's sad that even Democrats now rank him above Nixon.
couldn't agree more; this list is hot garbage


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: The Mikado on February 19, 2018, 05:40:11 PM
"One of the worst" is one thing, but I fail to see how Trump's Administration has been as disastrous as, say, John Tyler's yet.

Tyler is still my "President Trump is most like" pick.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Badger on February 19, 2018, 06:12:12 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

Which is why Obama jump up 10 spots from 2014 and is now better than Reagan.
Only Democratic analysts thought that, independents thought Reagan was better.

On the overall list, Obama is now 8th and Reagan is 9th.

In both overrated with those rankings, IMHO


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Reaganfan on February 19, 2018, 08:16:44 PM
Kennedy, Trump and Jackson are WAY too low. LBJ is too high. So are Wilson and Obama.

I googled the three "scholars" and they are ultra liberal. Academics hate Trump, personally and politically.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: LabourJersey on February 19, 2018, 08:21:25 PM
You can't compare modern presidents with earlier ones. John Tyler's job description was very, very different from Donald Trump's.

Anyway, you can make a good argument that G.W. Bush is still the worst modern president (until Trump starts a war).


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as one of the worst Presidents in American history
Post by: Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin on February 19, 2018, 08:21:33 PM
Not really a judgement one can make only year into someone's Presidency.

Usually not, but there is little reason to believe somebody like Trump will change due to new inputs and experiences. What you see now is all we're gonna get.


Oh, I doubt that. Unless he is removed or dies, we're going to see far worse.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Middle-aged Europe on February 20, 2018, 05:02:07 AM
Kennedy, Trump and Jackson are WAY too low. LBJ is too high. So are Wilson and Obama.

I googled the three "scholars" and they are ultra liberal. Academics hate Trump, personally and politically.

To which "three" scholars are you referring to? The NY Times mentions only two by name and these are the two who conducted that survey. Who is the third one you're referring to??

In addition, on what is your assessment based that these two scholars are "ultra-liberal"? Which sites did you find that specifically stated that the two scholars are liberal? Because one of these two is Justin S. Vaughn from the Boise State University. According to Vaughn's Facebook account, he liked the pages of the following Republican politicians:

- Steve Yates, former chair of the Idaho Republican Party and currently running for the Republican nomination for Lieutenant Governor of Idaho
- Brad Little, incumbent Republican Lieutenant Governor of Idaho, currently running for the GOP gubernatorial nomination
- Tommy Ahlquist, also a candidate for the Republican nomination for Idaho governor
- Mike Simpson, Republican congressman from Idaho's 2nd district
- Jeff Sayer, Republican candidate for the Idaho State Senate

Vaughn doesn't seem to have liked any Democratic politicians though. In your opinion, is supporting multiple Republican candidates an indication for being "ultra-liberal"?

https://www.facebook.com/justinvaughnphd/about?lst=1521762832%3A100012201306729%3A1519121070

The survey itself was conducted among 170 members of the American Political Science Association, among them also a couple of Republican scholars. According to the NY Times article, if you take only the Republican scholars' responses into account, Donald Trump ranks 40th among the 44 presidents. Which is still pretty bad, even though slightly bettter than the Democrats' und Independents' responses.

Do you have any reason to believe that the Republican scholars' reponses were in any way falsified, as you seem to accuse the two authors of the survey to have been done just that?


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: emailking on February 20, 2018, 08:44:56 AM

It clearly states that there are three more years and that this ranking is where he stands RIGHT NOW.

Not hard to comprehend.
Yeah still junk, rating a president needs hindsight that can take 25-50 years. Eisenhower and Truman were viewed as failed presidents in the years after they left office

And in 100 years they could be viewed as failed Presidents again for all you know. Heck, Jackson just moved down 8 spots in this ranking from 2 years ago. There's nothing wrong with taking as assessment of where things stand now, subject to change.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Badger on February 20, 2018, 08:47:03 AM
Kennedy, Trump and Jackson are WAY too low. LBJ is too high. So are Wilson and Obama.

I googled the three "scholars" and they are ultra liberal. Academics hate Trump, personally and politically.

To which "three" scholars are you referring to? The NY Times mentions only two by name and these are the two who conducted that survey. Who is the third one you're referring to??

In addition, on what is your assessment based that these two scholars are "ultra-liberal"? Which sites did you find that specifically stated that the two scholars are liberal? Because one of these two is Justin S. Vaughn from the Boise State University. According to Vaughn's Facebook account, he liked the pages of the following Republican politicians:

- Steve Yates, former chair of the Idaho Republican Party and currently running for the Republican nomination for Lieutenant Governor of Idaho
- Brad Little, incumbent Republican Lieutenant Governor of Idaho, currently running for the GOP gubernatorial nomination
- Tommy Ahlquist, also a candidate for the Republican nomination for Idaho governor
- Mike Simpson, Republican congressman from Idaho's 2nd district
- Jeff Sayer, Republican candidate for the Idaho State Senate

Vaughn doesn't seem to have liked any Democratic politicians though. In your opinion, is supporting multiple Republican candidates an indication for being "ultra-liberal"?

https://www.facebook.com/justinvaughnphd/about?lst=1521762832%3A100012201306729%3A1519121070

The survey itself was conducted among 170 members of the American Political Science Association, among them also a couple of Republican scholars. According to the NY Times article, if you take only the Republican scholars' responses into account, Donald Trump ranks 40th among the 44th presidents. Which is still pretty bad, even though slightly bettter than the Democrats' und Independents' responses.

Do you have any reason to believe that the Republican scholars' reponses were in any way falsified, as you seem to accuse the two authors of the survey to have been done just that?

It's Naso. He's obviously suspicious of anyone smart. Well outside his baliwick and all that.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: MasterJedi on February 20, 2018, 09:46:28 AM
Kennedy, Trump and Jackson are WAY too low. LBJ is too high. So are Wilson and Obama.

I googled the three "scholars" and they are ultra liberal. Academics hate Trump, personally and politically.

To which "three" scholars are you referring to? The NY Times mentions only two by name and these are the two who conducted that survey. Who is the third one you're referring to??

In addition, on what is your assessment based that these two scholars are "ultra-liberal"? Which sites did you find that specifically stated that the two scholars are liberal? Because one of these two is Justin S. Vaughn from the Boise State University. According to Vaughn's Facebook account, he liked the pages of the following Republican politicians:

- Steve Yates, former chair of the Idaho Republican Party and currently running for the Republican nomination for Lieutenant Governor of Idaho
- Brad Little, incumbent Republican Lieutenant Governor of Idaho, currently running for the GOP gubernatorial nomination
- Tommy Ahlquist, also a candidate for the Republican nomination for Idaho governor
- Mike Simpson, Republican congressman from Idaho's 2nd district
- Jeff Sayer, Republican candidate for the Idaho State Senate

Vaughn doesn't seem to have liked any Democratic politicians though. In your opinion, is supporting multiple Republican candidates an indication for being "ultra-liberal"?

https://www.facebook.com/justinvaughnphd/about?lst=1521762832%3A100012201306729%3A1519121070

The survey itself was conducted among 170 members of the American Political Science Association, among them also a couple of Republican scholars. According to the NY Times article, if you take only the Republican scholars' responses into account, Donald Trump ranks 40th among the 44th presidents. Which is still pretty bad, even though slightly bettter than the Democrats' und Independents' responses.

Do you have any reason to believe that the Republican scholars' reponses were in any way falsified, as you seem to accuse the two authors of the survey to have been done just that?

It's Naso. He's obviously suspicious of anyone smart. Well outside his baliwick and all that.

I'm surprised he even allows himself to use Google since it was created and run by liberals. ::)


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 20, 2018, 10:01:49 AM
Democratic scholars rank Obama sixth, after the usual trinity of Washington, Lincoln, and FDR and then what are usually the two greatest peace-time Presidents (Jefferson and T. Roosevelt).  Independent scholars rank Obama twelfth, which is decidedly above average. Republican scholars rate our 44th President sixteenth, which is still above average.

The problem that conservatives can have with Obama isn't the faults of recklessness, corruption, insensitivity, or inattention (none of which apply) that could bring down any President. The problem with Obama as a President to conservatives is that he was not one of them. Conservative scholars surely recognize that President Obama has virtues that would serve a conservative President well.

So if it is a matter of disliking the result, Ronald Reagan is fourteenth for Democratic, seventh for independent, and fifth for Republican scholars. Obama, who displayed much the same skill set as Reagan, will probably be seen very well for conducting himself well -- and Reagan will get credit for reshaping America in his direction. Even that is a matter of taste.

Now what about Donald Trump? Conservative scholars rate him 40th, which is awful. Democratic and independent scholars both rate Franklin Pierce 40th, and I have never heard anyone laud Pierce as President. Independent scholars rate him second-to-worst.  Style points? That may be part of it, but we have not had a President so ill-prepared for the job as Donald Trump for over a century. We had also never elected a demagogue.    

Scholars can look to the long term, and perhaps they see in Donald Trump many of the signs of failure. Catastrophe is hard to predict, and if it did, then current Republicans  (maybe 'conservatives' in the future) would assess whether he handled the catastrophe well. If Trump were to get us into a bungled war or if he were to preside over an economic meltdown that begins as severely as those beginning in the autumns of 1929 or 2007, then they might fault him for making the Republican Party highly unattractive for a very long time. It's hard to imagine any President facing so hideous a spiraling of events as James Buchanan, second-to-last for Democratic scholars and last for independent and Republican scholars.

If I have a fault for Obama, it is that Donald Trump follows him.     


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself on February 20, 2018, 10:20:28 AM
This says more about academia than Trump. No matter how you feel Trump saying stupid/mean things does not surpass plunging the country into a civil war. Despite the partisan hysteria that surrounds every president, the worst presidents are the pre/post civil war era presidents: Fillmore, Pierce, Buchanan, and Johnson. Outside of that era any reasonable person would rate Tyler, Harding, and Hoover worse than any President from the modern era
The thing is that there isn't a fundamental fault line as strong as slavery to plunge the nation into war right now.

I thought you were gonna quit posting.
Things aren't quite as different as expected. Deal with it.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Hollywood756 on February 20, 2018, 01:05:25 PM


Not to mention he has very little if any legislative accomplishments and he was the one that sent the first combat troops into Vietnam.  I've said it before and I'll say it again, once the aurora of Camelot and the belief of "What would've/could've Been" fades, Kennedy's standing with the public and scholars will fall.

So I have a portrait of James Dean tattooed on my left foot, along with the line "Life can be beautiful" from rebel without a cause.

As I've gotten older and seen more about his career, I've realized James Dean wasn't a great actor- he may have been very good, but he didn't have enough time to transcend to greatness. He is better understood as an icon. He is a symbol for american peak teenager, just as John Wayne is the icon for American rugged independence.

Kennedy is better understood in that light, as an icon, of the Gospel of Wealth era. 


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Orser67 on February 20, 2018, 02:23:45 PM
Trump is bad but I don't see how you can rank him lower than Buchanan, Pierce, or Andrew Johnson. His presidency hasn't been nearly as harmful as theirs were.

Otherwise, I see some real improvements in this poll. Obama in the top quartile, Clinton and Jackson moving from the first quartile to the second quartile, Grant moving up to slightly above average. I do disagree with Bush moving up; I thought 35 was about right (though he should be above Nixon).


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Yank2133 on February 20, 2018, 04:23:35 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

With any other president I would agree. But Trump is uniquely bad and has shown no hints of actually improvement.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: Yank2133 on February 20, 2018, 04:26:22 PM
Why do people think we can't evaluate Trump after a year? He's done plenty that can be evaluated.
Hindsight gives you a better view of how decisions/policies play out. Harding was viewed very positively when he dies and Truman was viewed as a failure when he left office

Which is why Obama jump up 10 spots from 2014 and is now better than Reagan.
Only Democratic analysts thought that, independents thought Reagan was better.

On the overall list, Obama is now 8th and Reagan is 9th.

In both overrated with those rankings, IMHO

No, they aren't.

Obama is the most accomplished president since LBJ, and has no major poltiical scandals to boot. Reagan as much as I hate him is the father of a political movement that is still going strong today.

Both are clearly top ten presidents by the metrics scholars use.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 20, 2018, 07:26:56 PM
One of my favorite ways to show the similarities of two Presidents is to show similarities in states in voting for one or the other. It is hardly surprising that Hoover in 1928 and Eisenhower in 1952 should win mostly the same states. Hoover promised peace and prosperity, and got only peace right; Ike could deliver. What is truly eerie is when the two presidents are from opposite Parties, as between Eisenhower and Obama. Partisan affiliations have changed dramatically  since the 1950s, but while much of the Democratic vote of the 1950s has since gone Republican and vice-versa, the similarities between Eisenhower and Obama present themselves in an odd way.

It is telling that Eisenhower won three states  (Massachusetts, Minnesota, and Rhode Island) that no Republican nominee has ever won together since 1924 -- and Ike did it twice. I'm guessing that Ike did best in the states with the highest levels of formal education -- which is much the same in the 2010s as in the 1950s.  Eisenhower and Obama both won Virginia after long dry spells for Republican Presidential nominees in that state for their respective Parties' nominees for President. 
..........................

When all is said and done, I think that the Obama and Eisenhower Presidencies are going to look like good analogues. Both Presidents are chilly rationalists. Both are practically scandal-free administrations. Both started with a troublesome war that both found their way out of. Neither did much to 'grow' the strength of their Parties in either House of Congress. To compare ISIS to Fidel Castro is completely unfair to Fidel Castro, a gentleman by contrast to ISIS.

The definitive moderate Republican may have been Dwight Eisenhower, and I have heard plenty of Democrats praise the Eisenhower Presidency. He went along with Supreme Court rulings that outlawed segregationist practices, stayed clear of the McCarthy bandwagon, and let McCarthy implode.

You can ignore the numbers which  indicate electoral votes from 2012.

(
)
 
gray -- did not vote in 1952 or 1956
white -- Eisenhower twice, Obama twice
deep blue -- Republican all four elections
light blue -- Republican all but 2012 (I assume that greater Omaha went for Ike twice)
light green -- Eisenhower once, Stevenson once, Obama never
dark green -- Stevenson twice, Obama never
pink -- Stevenson twice, Obama once

No state voted Democratic all four times, so no state is in deep red.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: The Mikado on February 20, 2018, 10:06:39 PM
Seriously, though, Trump is a disaster, but I think anyone who says he's worse than John "Kicked out of both parties, appointed the worst man in America as Secretary of State, and annexed Texas in my lame duck period just to f**k with my successors" Tyler, Franklin "inconsolable wreck in mourning my entire presidency and unable to do any work whatsover" Pierce, James "pushed the Dred Scott decision, then let the South secede without lifting a finger" Buchanan, or Andrew "stupid drunk sonofabitch racist impeached for being an obstinate jackass" Johnson is high as a kite.


Title: Re: Scholars rank Trump as the worst President in American history
Post by: pbrower2a on February 20, 2018, 11:31:04 PM
It could be that the scholars are voting heavily upon achievements and conduct. Putting Obama near the top despite no evidence that his achievements will stick and Trump at the bottom indicates that behavior matters greatly. Obama did not try to get law enforcement to do the dirty work of partisan politics. His administration was spit-and-polish underneath the facade of an easy-going personality. He did not get into fights with the intelligence services or the military. He made no money off the Presidency. He kept his family members out of positions of power and influence. His communications were always measured. He showed a sense of humor. He did not use his power as a means of punishing opponents and rivals.