Talk Elections

Atlas Fantasy Elections => Constitutional Convention => Topic started by: Senator Cris on October 09, 2015, 08:07:05 am



Title: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 09, 2015, 08:07:05 am
This thread will be about powers denied to Senate and regions.

That's what Constitution says about this matter:

Quote
Article I

All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia.

Section 1: The Senate
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 2: Impeachment
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 3: Senate Rules and Legislation
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 4: Elections to the Senate
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 5: Powers of the Senate
The Senate shall have the power save where limited by other provisions in the Constitution-

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the Regions of the Republic of Atlasia and the District of Columbia.
2. To borrow money on the credit of the Republic of Atlasia and repay such debts.
3. To regulate commerce with foreign nations.
4. To provide an area of Freedom, Security and Justice without internal frontiers, and a single market where competition is free and undistorted.
5. To establish uniform rules of Naturalization and Alienation, Marriage and Divorce, and Adoption and Emancipation of Minors throughout the Republic of Atlasia.
6. To establish uniform laws on the subjects of Bankruptcies, Contracts, and Incorporation throughout the Republic of Atlasia.
7. To provide for the Punishment of Fraud in a uniform manner throughout the Republic of Atlasia
8. To establish coin and currency, which shall be the sole legal tender of the Republic of Atlasia, regulate the value thereof, with respect to other coin and currency.
9. To fix standards of weights and measures and of such items of commerce as it deems needful throughout the Republic of Atlasia.
10. To build or regulate the infrastructure needed for communication and transportation.
11. To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right throughout the Republic of Atlasia to their respective Writings and Discoveries for limited Times which shall not be extended once secured.
12. To promote Science and the useful Arts by sponsoring researches on diverse subjects.
13. To promote the Public Health, by the conducting of researches, investigations, experiments, and demonstrations relating to the cause, diagnosis, and treatment of medical disorders and by assisting and fostering such research activities by public and private agencies.
14. To protect the Public Health and commerce, by providing for the quarantine, vaccination, and treatment of individuals, animals and plants as needed to prevent the spread of contagious diseases.
15. To promote the distribution of Knowledge of Science and useful Arts, by assisting and fostering persons seeking to be educated, to provide education, or to produce educational materials.
16. To provide for the humanitarian relief of the distress caused by unpredictable events of natural or man-made origin.
17. To provide for systems of Insurance and Annuity for Unemployment, Disability, and Retirement.
18. To have sole power to declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning captures on land and water;
19. To define and punish piracies and felonies committed on the high seas, and offenses against the law of nations.
20. To promote Comity between Nations by engaging in such activities with other Nations as are of mutual benefit.
21. To provide for the common defense of the Republic of Atlasia.
22. To raise and support armed forces and to make rules for the government and regulation of the armed forces of the Republic of Atlasia.
23. To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions.
24. To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the militia, and for governing such part of them as may be employed in the service of the Republic of Atlasia, reserving to the Regions respectively, the appointment of the officers, and the authority of training the militia according to the discipline prescribed by the Senate.
25. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding twelve nautical miles square) as may, by cession of particular Regions, and the acceptance of the Senate, become the seat of the government of the Republic of Atlasia, and to be known as the District of Columbia.
26. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the Region in which the same shall be, for the provision of military facilities, courthouses, and other needful buildings.
27. To exercise exclusive legislation, in all cases whatsoever, over such Territory as may be under the jurisdiction of the Republic of Atlasia, but are not part of any Region.
28. To create the Executive Departments as it may deem necessary and to assign duties to their officers.
29. To Suspend the Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, and to make provision for its Suspension by the executive when the Senate is not in session, but the Privilege shall be Suspended only when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
30. To protect the Public Health and commerce by making such regulations as shall be necessary for the protection of those in employment.
31. To protect the Public Health, commerce and heritage by making such regulations as shall be necessary for the protection and preservation of natural beauty, biological diversity and other natural resources.
32. And to make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the powers enumerated in this section, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the Republic of Atlasia, or in any department or officer thereof.

Section 6: Powers denied to the Senate
1. No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed.
2. No Capitation, or other direct, Tax shall vary depending upon the Region of which the Person it be laid against shall live.
3. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on Articles exported from any Region.
4. No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one Region over those of another: nor shall Vessels bound to, or from, one Region, be obliged to enter, clear, or pay Duties in another.
5. No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time.
6. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the Republic of Atlasia: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Senate, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
7. No Law requiring any action to be taken or to be not taken by a Region shall be passed, except to preserve the rights of the Senate or of the People enumerated under the Constitution.

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions
1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of the Senate they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect the Republic of Atlasia as a Whole.
2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.
3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
5. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the Republic of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Senate.
6. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
7. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
8. No Region shall, without the Consent of the Senate, enter into any Agreement or Compact with a foreign Power.

Quote
Article VII

Section 1: Amendment Procedure
1. The Senate, whenever two-thirds of its number shall deem it necessary, shall propose amendments to this Constitution, which shall be valid to all intents and purposes as part of this Constitution when ratified by three-quarters of the Regions.
2. Proposals to amend the Constitution that pass the Senate and are sent to the Regions for ratification shall never be required to be voted on by the Senate again in the future.
3. Regions shall be free to ratify Amendments passed by the Senate multiple times, in any of the following ways, chosen by their legislature: 3a. Approval by vote of the Region's lawmaking body, or 3c. Public referendum wherein each citizen shall vote via public post, in a length determined by the Region's lawmaking process.

Section 2: New Convention
Discussion about it not in this thread


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Oakvale on October 09, 2015, 11:10:52 am
Perhaps the most important thing we can do here is to make it much harder for the Senate to pass amendments since people have to vote on amending subsection B, Clause A (c) every two days or something. Maybe amendments should require an 8/10 vote and be subject to a Presidential veto?


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 09, 2015, 03:33:33 pm
Perhaps the most important thing we can do here is to make it much harder for the Senate to pass amendments since people have to vote on amending subsection B, Clause A (c) every two days or something. Maybe amendments should require an 8/10 vote and be subject to a Presidential veto?

     As someone who spent a long time in regional government and got a bit of an outsider's perspective, I must say that the frequency with which the Senate proposed bizarre amendments was enervating. In the long run, I suspect it contributed heavily to voter fatigue.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Oakvale on October 09, 2015, 04:46:55 pm
Perhaps the most important thing we can do here is to make it much harder for the Senate to pass amendments since people have to vote on amending subsection B, Clause A (c) every two days or something. Maybe amendments should require an 8/10 vote and be subject to a Presidential veto?

     As someone who spent a long time in regional government and got a bit of an outsider's perspective, I must say that the frequency with which the Senate proposed bizarre amendments was enervating. In the long run, I suspect it contributed heavily to voter fatigue.

I agree. Not to mention the average turnout was about three votes a region.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 09, 2015, 11:20:47 pm
Clause five of section five of Article One  should be changed and all but immigration should devolve to the regions.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: bore on October 10, 2015, 09:27:41 am
The problem (which I think is continued by just changing each individual section individually) was that the constitution basically stipulated almost every important detail of atlasia so to change anything had to be done via a constitution (there is no reason, for example, that the constitution rather than legislation should stipulate the activity standard for voting in elections, say). That plus the awful quality of the writing meant the flow of amendments.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 10, 2015, 01:11:58 pm
The problem (which I think is continued by just changing each individual section individually) was that the constitution basically stipulated almost every important detail of atlasia so to change anything had to be done via a constitution (there is no reason, for example, that the constitution rather than legislation should stipulate the activity standard for voting in elections, say). That plus the awful quality of the writing meant the flow of amendments.

This is exactly why I've been pushing to strike the text of the current Constitution in full. We need a complete re-write, not piecemeal reform.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 10, 2015, 03:24:36 pm
Amendments being subject to presidential veto is a terrible idea. I agree that there should be a bit higher threshold for pushing Amendments down for ratification, but to the extent that is done depends heavily on what legislature we end up with when all is said and done.

This is exactly why I've been pushing to strike the text of the current Constitution in full. We need a complete re-write, not piecemeal reform.

Which is why I agree with this ^. It's almost impossible to have the Amendment process in detail when we don't even know the legislative system we're going to agree to.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 10, 2015, 04:26:33 pm
I offer the following amendment:

Quote
Sections 5, 6, and 7 of Article I are amended to read as follows:
Article [TBD]

[Placeholder Text]


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 10, 2015, 05:10:46 pm
Delegates have 24 hours to object to the Truman's amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 12, 2015, 10:43:28 am
The amendment has been adopted.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Talleyrand on October 12, 2015, 03:27:37 pm
If the issue here is voter fatigue (which I definitely agree with), we should just stipulate several possible dates in the year to vote on all constitutional amendments so you don't have one each week. Perhaps they should coincide with whatever the next federal election is, special or regular.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 12, 2015, 03:30:31 pm
If the issue here is voter fatigue (which I definitely agree with), we should just stipulate several possible dates in the year to vote on all constitutional amendments so you don't have one each week. Perhaps they should coincide with whatever the next federal election is, special or regular.
My hesitation would be that sometimes constitutional amendments fixes errors or loopholes in the constitution. Perhaps require it to receive unanimous approval to be voted on the following weekend, otherwise it is sent to the next federal election.

Good thought, Talleyrand!


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Talleyrand on October 12, 2015, 03:35:02 pm
That's a good idea. If it's an urgent, unanimous fix it should be voted on immediately. Anything else can wait.

Another thing we need to definitely have is the SoFE administer the booth. Enough waiting on 5 different regional executives to open five different booths in five different booths or whatever. The arguments for that existing were beyond inane, and proven garbage time and time again.

Also, how about we clarify that the amendment must receive 60% support nationwide to pass? If we still mandate it to be based on the regions, you could have a situation where it fails by 1 vote with very low turnout in two regions, while passes heavily with extremely high turnout in another. Thus, something an overwhelming majority of voters support would fail to pass.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 12, 2015, 03:38:38 pm
That's a good idea. If it's an urgent, unanimous fix it should be voted on immediately. Anything else can wait.

Another thing we need to definitely have is the SoFE administer the booth. Enough waiting on 5 different regional executives to open five different booths in five different booths or whatever. The arguments for that existing were beyond inane, and proven garbage time and time again.

Also, how about we clarify that the amendment must receive 60% support nationwide to pass? If we still mandate it to be based on the regions, you could have a situation where it fails by 1 vote with very low turnout in two regions, while passes heavily with extremely high turnout in another. Thus, something an overwhelming majority of voters support would fail to pass.

This is an excellent idea. The current amendment process is poorly constructed and ought to be replaced.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 12, 2015, 03:44:08 pm
I would agree that it should be administered by the SoFE - I don't see how that tramples on regional rights. Though I expect things to be better now (two-three active regions), it is still a safer bet to simply leave it in the hands of the SoFE.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 12, 2015, 04:09:04 pm
     60% support nationwide is rather low, but I would accept it as a compromise if it is balanced with more stringent requirements on the Senate proposing an amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 12, 2015, 04:11:23 pm
     60% support nationwide is rather low, but I would accept it as a compromise if it is balanced with more stringent requirements on the Senate proposing an amendment.

67%, perhaps? That would correspond to the current requirement of 2/3 of the Regions.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 12, 2015, 04:14:35 pm
     60% support nationwide is rather low, but I would accept it as a compromise if it is balanced with more stringent requirements on the Senate proposing an amendment.

67%, perhaps? That would correspond to the current requirement of 2/3 of the Regions.

     I think 67% is alright. When the vote came up on that requirement, someone (think it was Marokai?) made the argument that it was about as tough as the standing ratification requirement.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 13, 2015, 02:25:33 am
67% nationwide and 80% of the Senate would be fine with me (with 100% leading to an immediate ratification vote, otherwise it would occur with the elections as Tmth suggested).


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: bore on October 13, 2015, 10:52:22 am
If we're going to have a constitution like the one we do now, which covers almost every issue under the sun in oppressive detail (which, disappointingly, seems to be the track we're on) then we need to have, if anything, a lower threshold to pass. It was borderline impossible for us to change anything before due to a combination of gubernatorial inaction, vested interests, uninterested zombies and unthinking conservatism and if we repeat the same thing again, you can mark my words that the game will be gone within a year.

Either we have a minimalist US style constitution and then we can talk about a higher threshhold or we have a constitution like it is now with better grammar and a lower threshhold. Anything else would be disastrous.

I do agree with set aside days and SOFE implemention, and frankly the consistent,crazy, opposition to the latter was always one of the most depressing aspects of the old atlasia.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 13, 2015, 12:19:54 pm
I prefer we don't include everything under the sun, this time around. A lot more should be left to the regions than was before.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 13, 2015, 01:50:39 pm
     History has indicated that the threshold for amending the Constitution needs to be high to mitigate the high levels of extremism in Atlasia. Being vague is perfectly fine.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: bore on October 13, 2015, 03:16:59 pm
     History has indicated that the threshold for amending the Constitution needs to be high to mitigate the high levels of extremism in Atlasia. Being vague is perfectly fine.

Well the fact that no reform measures, whether consolidation, districts, bicameralism, giving control over amendments to the SOFE and so on and so on and so on, despite them all having more than majority support and in most cases supermajority support among active players, passed suggests that it already is a really high threshold and in fact, too high.

Again though, this would be far more bearable if it weren't for the fact that to change anything in the game of any importance requires changing the constitution.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 13, 2015, 03:27:00 pm
     History has indicated that the threshold for amending the Constitution needs to be high to mitigate the high levels of extremism in Atlasia. Being vague is perfectly fine.

Well the fact that no reform measures, whether consolidation, districts, bicameralism, giving control over amendments to the SOFE and so on and so on and so on, despite them all having more than majority support and in most cases supermajority support among active players, passed suggests that it already is a really high threshold and in fact, too high.

Again though, this would be far more bearable if it weren't for the fact that to change anything in the game of any importance requires changing the constitution.


     I was being a little facetious there, but my view of the Constitution has long been that it should exist as a sort of "last line of defense against tyranny". In that case high barriers to change make sense, and have worked alright with the United States IRL.

     The difference is that, as you point out, the United States has a very nonspecific Constitution whereas Atlasia's goes into painful detail on many different subjects. I think moving towards the former model and reserving many of the things that were detailed in the Second and Third Constitutions for statute would be a wise move that would find broad ideological support.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 15, 2015, 01:23:25 am
I completely agree. Less detail and high threshold is a better approach.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 15, 2015, 01:24:35 am
As part of my comprehensive plan to regulate inactivity and provide for a bicameral system, I propose the following amendment. Keep in mind that even without bicameralism, such a proposal would be ideal in terms of limiting the number of unfillable offices within the game. My ideal proposal for the formula in question is:

Idea #1 (My Favorite Idea)
  • <25% of the game's population = 3 Legislators
  • 25-40% of the game's population = 5 Legislators
  • >40% of the game's population = 3 Legislators

However, this can be debated and the specific formula is not defined below in the text. I have also left open the ability for Regions to reduce the number of seats they have in a given legislative cycle, in the event that a Region qualifies for, say, 5 seats but does not have the activity to sustain such numbers.

I don't believe that any of the current restrictions are excessive, nor can I think of any additional clauses that need to be added at the moment.



Quote
Section 7: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of Federal Legislators they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect the Republic of Atlasia as a Whole.
2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.
3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
5. No Region may increase the number of regional legislative positions in its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body if Federal Legislators enact via statute a formula for legislative seat allocation applied to each Region, based on population data provided by the Census Bureau, which shall be automatically calculated and applied 30 days before each instance of a Region's scheduled legislative elections.
6. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the Republic of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Federal Legislators.
7. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
8. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
9. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, enter into any Agreement or Compact with a foreign Power.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 18, 2015, 03:12:40 am
I would support that amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: bore on October 18, 2015, 12:16:17 pm
I think the senate is overmighty as it is when it comes to the federal government, and we shouldn't be giving them even more powers.

Also, seeing as we're going for a new and clearer constitution there's no need to reproduce the archaic language and archaic sections of the old one.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 18, 2015, 12:48:42 pm
I completely agree. Less detail and high threshold is a better approach.

This. The Constitution should provide a framework, not a blueprint.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 18, 2015, 10:27:11 pm
I completely agree. Less detail and high threshold is a better approach.

This. The Constitution should provide a framework, not a blueprint.

I think devolution is also the answer to discourage separatism and ensure that local candidates have real issues to decide and vote on. I still favor a federal system though, there is nothing incompatible with the two or necessitates that devolution requires a confederation system.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 20, 2015, 09:51:01 am
Delegates have 24 hours to object. Sorry for the delay.

Quote
Section 7: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of Federal Legislators they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect the Republic of Atlasia as a Whole.
2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.
3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
5. No Region may increase the number of regional legislative positions in its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body if Federal Legislators enact via statute a formula for legislative seat allocation applied to each Region, based on population data provided by the Census Bureau, which shall be automatically calculated and applied 30 days before each instance of a Region's scheduled legislative elections.
6. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the Republic of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Federal Legislators.
7. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
8. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
9. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, enter into any Agreement or Compact with a foreign Power.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 20, 2015, 11:43:22 am
I completely agree. Less detail and high threshold is a better approach.

This. The Constitution should provide a framework, not a blueprint.

Indeed.  Keep the constitution simple and easy to understand.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 20, 2015, 01:52:12 pm
     I think the included Clause 5 should be a little less descriptive. Along the framework not a blueprint point (as Senator Truman eloquently put it), the detail of what the formula is based on and when it is applied should be left entirely up to the statute.

     I may prefer to let it pass and then propose an amendment to make that change, since I agree with the basic content of the amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: bore on October 20, 2015, 01:57:54 pm
I object, for the reasons mentioned above.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 20, 2015, 03:44:23 pm
A 48-hours vote is now open. Please vote.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 20, 2015, 04:58:58 pm
Abstain. I'm torn on the proposal itself, but I definitely think the present text is too bulky.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 20, 2015, 05:11:11 pm
Nay - but I like where this is going.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 20, 2015, 05:32:06 pm
     Since it is up for a vote now, I'll go ahead and vote nay so we can get a more spare version.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: rpryor03 on October 20, 2015, 07:12:41 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Talleyrand on October 20, 2015, 07:18:38 pm
I don't know who proposed 67% as the requirement for the national referendum, but that is beyond ridiculous. You are trying to reinstitute the same legalism and inability to make any change that killed this game in the first place.

Keep in mind 60% of the vote nationwide almost always translates to 4/5 of regions anyway. I personally would support a lower threshold if not just an outright majority.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: MadmanMotley on October 20, 2015, 08:04:20 pm
Abstain.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 20, 2015, 09:07:37 pm
Aye - we can remove any other elements later, but there needs to be a basic framework for each section to begin with, rather than trying to piecemeal it all together one bit at a time from scratch.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on October 21, 2015, 10:12:44 am
nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 21, 2015, 10:38:18 am
Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 21, 2015, 10:40:17 am
Aye, but we'll need further work before its final.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Grand Inquisitor Lumine on October 21, 2015, 10:48:17 am
Abstain.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 21, 2015, 11:04:53 am
Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Clark Kent on October 21, 2015, 12:36:45 pm
AYE


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: VPH on October 21, 2015, 02:39:54 pm
nay. Clause 5 irks me


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Oakvale on October 21, 2015, 03:36:53 pm
Nope.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: ilikeverin on October 22, 2015, 07:35:12 am
Nope >:(


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 22, 2015, 03:06:32 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 22, 2015, 04:09:26 pm
AYE - 3
NAY - 8
ABSTAIN - 5

The amendment failed to pass.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 22, 2015, 05:45:25 pm
For the record NAY because of article 5. The allocation of regional legislatures has always been a strictly regional matter.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal government (Senate) and regional governments.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 22, 2015, 06:35:24 pm
     I propose:

Quote
Section 7: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation, save that with the Consent of Federal Legislators they may enter into Agreements or Compacts with other Regions for purposes of handling Specific Issues which affect more than one Region but which do not affect the Republic of Atlasia as a Whole.
2. No Region may issue Coin or Currency or make any Coin or Currency other than that of the Republic of Atlasia a legal tender.
3. No Region may pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts
4. No Region may grant any Title of Nobility.
5. No Region may increase the number of regional legislative positions in its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body if Federal Legislators enact via statute a formula for legislative seat allocation to be applied to each Region.
6. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing its inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties, laid by any Region on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the Republic of Atlasia; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Control of the Federal Legislators.
7. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, lay any Duty of Tonnage.
8. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, maintain Armed Forces in time of Peace.
9. No Region shall, without the Consent of Federal Legislators, enter into any Agreement or Compact with a foreign Power.

     Making the amendment less specific, so we can change things without needing to amend the Constitution.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (VOTING ON AMENDMENT)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 23, 2015, 07:33:34 am
Delegates have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 23, 2015, 07:10:05 pm
I'd prefer to greatly condense the text of that section: as it is, the format is still quite bulky. Perhaps something like this:

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Note that this does not change the substance of PiT's amendment: rather, it simply reduces the overall length of the text by eliminating redundancies and combining similar sections into one.

- Sections 1 and 9 of PiT's amendment are combined, as both deal with the circumstances in which Regions may enter into "treaties, alliances, and confederations": rather than a complicated description of the circumstances in which inter-Regional alliances are allowable and a separate prohibition of alliances with foreign powers, the new Section one establishes the general requirement that all proposed pacts have the consent of the national legislature.
-Sections 2, 4, 7, and 8 are combined, as all are fairly succinct descriptions of powers denied to the Regions.
-Section 5 is further condensed, eliminating the bulky second clause with the more succinct "except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature"
-Section 6 (now Section 3) is left intact, with some tweaks to the wording.

(To avoid confusion, I will not introduce this as an official amendment until we have decided whether or not to adopt PiT's version.)


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 23, 2015, 09:05:44 pm
Section 5 is a nonstarter.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 24, 2015, 07:04:33 am
Agreed - I feel that there should be a system in place to reduce or increase the size of the legislature based on the number of candidates.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 24, 2015, 07:27:10 am
If you are objecting to the amendment, please make clear it.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 24, 2015, 07:37:13 am
I object.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 24, 2015, 07:42:06 am
The objection, unfortunately, was 4 minutes too late.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 24, 2015, 09:20:39 am
Adam is right.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 24, 2015, 11:43:40 am
In that case, I hereby propose the following amendment:

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

The purpose of this amendment is to make the current text simpler and more succinct; it does not significantly alter the substance of PiT's amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 24, 2015, 11:51:24 am
Delegates have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 24, 2015, 12:12:23 pm
I object - for the same reason as before. Section 5 is, for me, unworkable - I feel that there should be a system in place to reduce or increase the size of the legislature based on the number of candidates.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 24, 2015, 12:39:19 pm
I object - for the same reason as before. Section 5 is, for me, unworkable - I feel that there should be a system in place to reduce or increase the size of the legislature based on the number of candidates.

Rejecting my amendment would not eliminate Section 5 because it was already adopted with PiT's amendment. If mine is voted down, we'll be left with a long-winded blueprint1 that does everything my amendment does in a more bulky, verbose style. A better strategy would be to adopt my amendment - which simplifies the current text significantly - and then to introduce a motion to strike Section 5.

1 No offense, PiT.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 24, 2015, 12:42:22 pm
I object - for the same reason as before. Section 5 is, for me, unworkable - I feel that there should be a system in place to reduce or increase the size of the legislature based on the number of candidates.

Rejecting my amendment would not eliminate Section 5 because it was already adopted with PiT's amendment. If mine is voted down, we'll be left with a long-winded blueprint1 that does everything my amendment does in a more bulky, verbose style. A better strategy would be to adopt my amendment - which simplifies the current text significantly - and then to introduce a motion to strike Section 5.

1 No offense, PiT.
I'll withdraw my objection and I'll propose an amendment to strike clause five.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 24, 2015, 03:12:21 pm
     No offense taken, Senator Truman; I appreciate the efforts to make the Constitution more compact and readable.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 24, 2015, 09:23:19 pm

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 25, 2015, 09:03:09 am

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 26, 2015, 07:13:08 pm

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!

My objection was on time and within protocol. Mind counts. Cris motion to honor my objection by opening a vote on the amendment from the 23rd. Adam was right about Clyde's but completely wrong about mine. You lose on this one Griff.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 26, 2015, 07:22:21 pm

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!

My objection was on time and within protocol. Mind counts. Cris motion to honor my objection by opening a vote on the amendment from the 23rd. Adam was right about Clyde's but completely wrong about mine. You lose on this one Griff.

Posting "Section 5 is a nonstarter" is not a formal objection, JCL, as I'm sure you know from your service in the Senate and the Mideast Assembly. Every legislative body in this game requires members to post "I object" (or something of that nature) in order for said post to be considered an objection. Saying that you dislike the amendment is not enough; otherwise, my post would have counted as an objection as well.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 26, 2015, 08:57:43 pm

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!

My objection was on time and within protocol. Mind counts. Cris motion to honor my objection by opening a vote on the amendment from the 23rd. Adam was right about Clyde's but completely wrong about mine. You lose on this one Griff.

Posting "Section 5 is a nonstarter" is not a formal objection, JCL, as I'm sure you know from your service in the Senate and the Mideast Assembly. Every legislative body in this game requires members to post "I object" (or something of that nature) in order for said post to be considered an objection. Saying that you dislike the amendment is not enough; otherwise, my post would have counted as an objection as well.

He really doesn't. He once against his desires on one of jambles' bills because he didn't understand what he was doing.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debatin
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 26, 2015, 11:19:06 pm

My objection is not too late. So the previous motion must be put up for a vote.

If Clyde's statement didn't count as an objection, then obviously yours didn't, either. At least you learned a valuable lesson on how to properly propose amendments and levy binding criticisms!

My objection was on time and within protocol. Mind counts. Cris motion to honor my objection by opening a vote on the amendment from the 23rd. Adam was right about Clyde's but completely wrong about mine. You lose on this one Griff.

Posting "Section 5 is a nonstarter" is not a formal objection, JCL, as I'm sure you know from your service in the Senate and the Mideast Assembly. Every legislative body in this game requires members to post "I object" (or something of that nature) in order for said post to be considered an objection. Saying that you dislike the amendment is not enough; otherwise, my post would have counted as an objection as well.

I'll take my lumps on this one and will fight to get said clause removed in another way. Griff, you want to bring that one up? *Facepalm*


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 27, 2015, 08:55:48 am
I don't know when I should post this, so I'll do it now - and it can be debated as and when.
Quote
Section ?: Regional Powers
1. The regional governments and legislatures ("regional bodies") shall have exclusive control over the certain devolved matters, without interference from the federal government or senate ("federal bodies"). All laws passed on the devolved matters by the federal bodies shall have no effect.
2. The regional bodies shall control agriculture, forestry and fisheries.
3. The regional bodies shall control education.
4. The regional bodies shall control elections and referenda that only affect their region.
  a. Any referenda that requires the support of more than one region shall require the approval of the regional bodies in question.
5. The regional bodies shall control environmental issues.
6. The regional bodies shall control health and social services.
7. The regional bodies shall control housing policy.
8. The regional bodies shall control media and media regulations.
9. The regional bodies shall control regional law and policing.
10. The regional bodies shall control sport and culture.
11. The regional bodies shall control taxes related to the devolved issues.
  a. Any federal tax related to a devolved issue shall not be required to be payed.
There's a clear feeling that the regions should have more exclusive power - without federal interference. This amendment gives control over matters that would have a large impact on the regions - and will make the regional bodies more important within the game, while making regional elections more exciting as more people wish to run for them.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 27, 2015, 09:02:18 am
The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 27, 2015, 09:04:11 am
The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 27, 2015, 09:38:10 am
The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.

I'm referring to this current version (the Truman's amendment approved by the ConCon):

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Both amendments are about regions powers...


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 27, 2015, 10:45:08 am
The Truman's amendment is adopted.

@Clyde.

Is that an amendment at current version?

If yes, please include your clauses in the current version. If not, I'll have to consider your amendment as a repeal of current text.
It's a new section. There's nothing in the current constitution that talks about what powers the regions have - as far as I can see.

I'm referring to this current version (the Truman's amendment approved by the ConCon):

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Both amendments are about regions powers...
That's saying what regions don't have powers over - whereas mine is what regions have exclusive powers in. It would be a separate section within the constitution.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 27, 2015, 11:06:51 am
Rather than making two long, minutely-detailed lists of powers for both sides of the federal-regional equation, I suggest we simply list the powers held by the federal government and append that list with the statement "All powers not delegated to the [National Government] by this Constitution are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people." That will both make the Constitution more succinct and broaden the scope of Regional authority (as the Regions will have control over all issues not granted to Nyman, rather than a finite list of duties).

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 27, 2015, 11:17:34 am
Also, I object to Clyde's amendment. I am generally in favor of devolution, but some of those powers are clearly national concerns. Granting the Regions sole control over "environmental issues," for example, would be crippling at a time when a national response to climate change is a national security prerogative.

Rather than listing certain areas of policy in which the federal government has no say, I would suggest composing a concrete list of powers held by the Senate (or Congress, if we go with bicameralism) and then vest all other powers in the Regions. That way, we could specify that the federal government has control over emissions regulations (for example), but the Regions could retain the right to legislate on conservation and other areas of environmental law.

Likewise, on a stylistic note, the proposed text is very bulky. There is no reason to have 10 sections that all begin "the regional bodies shall control...": we could just as easily have one section listing all the powers held by Nyman/the Regions, which would be much more accessible and succinct. Once again, we are building a framework, not a blueprint: there is no need to cover every detail.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 27, 2015, 11:21:01 am
@Clyde

So your amendment is about another separate section? Something like this?

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Section ?: Regional Powers
1. The regional governments and legislatures ("regional bodies") shall have exclusive control over the certain devolved matters, without interference from the federal government or senate ("federal bodies"). All laws passed on the devolved matters by the federal bodies shall have no effect.
2. The regional bodies shall control agriculture, forestry and fisheries.
3. The regional bodies shall control education.
4. The regional bodies shall control elections and referenda that only affect their region.
  a. Any referenda that requires the support of more than one region shall require the approval of the regional bodies in question.
5. The regional bodies shall control environmental issues.
6. The regional bodies shall control health and social services.
7. The regional bodies shall control housing policy.
8. The regional bodies shall control media and media regulations.
9. The regional bodies shall control regional law and policing.
10. The regional bodies shall control sport and culture.
11. The regional bodies shall control taxes related to the devolved issues.
  a. Any federal tax related to a devolved issue shall not be required to be payed.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 27, 2015, 11:22:42 am
Rather than making two long, minutely-detailed lists of powers for both sides of the federal-regional equation, I suggest we simply list the powers held by the federal government and append that list with the statement "All powers not delegated to the [National Government] by this Constitution are reserved to the Regions respectively, or to the people." That will both make the Constitution more succinct and broaden the scope of Regional authority (as the Regions will have control over all issues not granted to Nyman, rather than a finite list of duties).

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.
Also, I object to Clyde's amendment. I am generally in favor of devolution, but some of those powers are clearly national concerns. Granting the Regions sole control over "environmental issues," for example, would be crippling at a time when a national response to climate change is a national security prerogative.

Rather than listing certain areas of policy in which the federal government has no say, I would suggest composing a concrete list of powers held by the Senate (or Congress, if we go with bicameralism) and then vest all other powers in the Regions. That way, we could specify that the federal government has control over emissions regulations (for example), but the Regions could retain the right to legislate on conservation and other areas of environmental law.

Likewise, on a stylistic note, the proposed text is very bulky. There is no reason to have 10 sections that all begin "the regional bodies shall control...": we could just as easily have one section listing all the powers held by Nyman/the Regions, which would be much more accessible and succinct. Once again, we are building a framework, not a blueprint: there is no need to cover every detail.
I'm happy to have a set list of which powers are Federal and which are Regional. I'm happy to hold a vote on which powers should be regional/federal. I withdraw my proposal for now - in order to do this.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 27, 2015, 04:04:18 pm
I support Truman's proposal.
Delegates, what do you think? If there's enough consensus, we'll go with that option.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 27, 2015, 10:14:04 pm
     Senator Truman's point about environmental issues reminds me of what Neel Kashkari said about environmental issues when I heard him speak. He said that California tackling environmental issues alone made no sense because we would just lose jobs to other states.

     I will admit that some issues should be dealt with at the national level. I think that we should focus on enumerating those, and leave the rest up to the regions.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 28, 2015, 07:06:53 pm
My proposed Amendment

Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Section ?: Regional Powers
1. The regional governments and legislatures ("regional bodies") shall have exclusive control over the certain devolved matters, without interference from the federal government or senate ("federal bodies"). All laws passed on the devolved matters by the federal bodies shall have no effect.
2. The regional bodies shall control agriculture, forestry and fisheries.
3. The regional bodies shall control education.
4. The regional bodies shall control elections and referenda that only affect their region.
  a. Any referenda that requires the support of more than one region shall require the approval of the regional bodies in question.
5. The regional bodies shall control environmental issues.
6. The regional bodies shall control health and social services.
7. The regional bodies shall control housing policy.
8. The regional bodies shall control media and media regulations.
9. The regional bodies shall control regional law and policing.
10. The regional bodies shall control sport and culture.
11. The regional bodies shall control taxes related to the devolved issues.
  a. Any federal tax related to a devolved issue shall not be required to be payed.
12. The regional bodies will have exclusive control over adoption, marriage, beginning and end of life matters

Red denotes the section to be added


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 28, 2015, 07:33:32 pm
I support Truman's proposal.
Delegates, what do you think? If there's enough consensus, we'll go with that option.

As no-one has objected, I move that we go ahead with this.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 29, 2015, 02:41:02 pm
If JCL is willing to withdraw his amendment, I'll open a 48-hours "nominations" period tomorrow about powers of federal government (the remaining powers are denied to regions). Then a 48-hours vote.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 29, 2015, 05:33:20 pm
Delegates have 24 hours to object to the JCL's amendment.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 29, 2015, 05:37:19 pm
I object.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 30, 2015, 08:47:29 am
A 48-hours is now open. Please vote.

Quote
Section [TBD]: Powers Denied to the Regions.

1. No Region shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation without the express Consent of the Federal Legislature.
2. No Region shall pass any Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law, nor pass any Act impairing the Obligation of Contracts.
3. No Region shall lay any Duty on exports and imports except by necessity for the proper enforcement of its Laws, and then only with the express Consent of the Federal Legislature; and in such case the net produce of such shall be conferred to the Federal Treasury.
4. No Region shall lay any Duty of Tonnage, nor grant any Title of Nobility, nor maintain Armed Forces in times of peace, nor issue, coin, or recognize as legal tender any currency but that of the Republic of Atlasia.
5. No Region may increase the size of its Legislature, Assembly or equivalent body except in the manner prescribed by the Federal Legislature.

Section ?: Regional Powers
1. The regional governments and legislatures ("regional bodies") shall have exclusive control over the certain devolved matters, without interference from the federal government or senate ("federal bodies"). All laws passed on the devolved matters by the federal bodies shall have no effect.
2. The regional bodies shall control agriculture, forestry and fisheries.
3. The regional bodies shall control education.
4. The regional bodies shall control elections and referenda that only affect their region.
  a. Any referenda that requires the support of more than one region shall require the approval of the regional bodies in question.
5. The regional bodies shall control environmental issues.
6. The regional bodies shall control health and social services.
7. The regional bodies shall control housing policy.
8. The regional bodies shall control media and media regulations.
9. The regional bodies shall control regional law and policing.
10. The regional bodies shall control sport and culture.
11. The regional bodies shall control taxes related to the devolved issues.
  a. Any federal tax related to a devolved issue shall not be required to be payed.
12. The regional bodies will have exclusive control over adoption, marriage, beginning and end of life matters


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: bore on October 30, 2015, 08:58:59 am
Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 30, 2015, 09:00:10 am
Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 30, 2015, 09:02:01 am
Aye - but we should have a principle vote on this.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 30, 2015, 03:11:54 pm
     Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on October 30, 2015, 03:23:38 pm
Nay.

We must not allow an individual region to become a de facto theocracy, abridging on individual rights. 


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 30, 2015, 04:10:33 pm
AYE!!!


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 30, 2015, 05:30:56 pm
NAY


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 30, 2015, 06:05:35 pm
Nay - too many small things that would go wrong if this passed.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 30, 2015, 06:23:58 pm
Nay


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 30, 2015, 09:04:49 pm
Nay.

We must not allow an individual region to become a de facto theocracy, abridging on individual rights. 

No theocratic agenda. It's an agenda on Federalist principals regardless of political ideology.

Nay - too many small things that would go wrong if this passed.

What small things? The pure and simple interpretation is this. The Federal government is forbidden from dictate a uniform policy to the regions regarding marriage, adoption, abortion, euthanasia.

It's restoring powers to the regions that the current constitution unjustly gave to the Federal government. My proposal has the intent of protecting rather than abridging individual rights.

My basis is the United States Constitution itself. One of the greatest problems the game has had since before I joined is that the national government had too much power.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 30, 2015, 10:29:53 pm
You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 31, 2015, 12:42:38 am
You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on October 31, 2015, 12:55:05 am
You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on October 31, 2015, 10:35:13 am
NAY


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 31, 2015, 02:56:37 pm
You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.

     I don't mind a confederation, but I believe that defining the powers of the regions is the wrong way to go about it. The regions' powers should merely be all things that the federal government does not cover.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 01, 2015, 09:59:52 am
You're proposing the lack of a country itself except for "muh military". Don't act all cute about it after the fact - this would render the bicameral federal government and reforms for such aims absolutely pointless, and there'd be no reason to have a system that was comprised of five regional entities unless they were sovereign countries with no connection whatsoever (which renders your amendment moot in the first place).

Ever heard of what is known as a "night watch state"?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night-watchman_state

That is what I advocate if at all possible.

Yeah, I mean that's what I said: not really a country - just an authoritarian confederation.

It's not an authoritarian confederation. It's much more liberal than you could fathom.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 01, 2015, 12:41:18 pm
The amendment failed.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 01, 2015, 06:48:24 pm
As JCL's amendment was rejected, I would like to resurrect this idea:

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 01, 2015, 09:20:12 pm
As JCL's amendment was rejected, I would like to resurrect this idea:

Also, an idea for how the powers debate should proceed: to avoid having twenty-five separate amendments differing only in their allocation of a few powers, I propose that we give delegates 48-72 hours to discuss what powers should be vested in the federal government/the Regions. After that time, the P.O. will open a final vote. On their ballots, each delegate will list the powers they feel should belong to the federal government; all powers that are mentioned by a majority of the delegates will be included in the final draft of the Constitution.

I'm open to that.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 01:43:56 am
We have gotten consolidation, we appear to have gotten bicamerialism. Unless we get devolution, this will fail at the regional level when it comes to activity and participation.

What people need to consider with regards to the recently failed JCL amendment, is that some of the most contentious regional issues that attracted most of the attention and interest dealt with social policy. We tend to forget that this is a game and there is desire to kill it wherever it grows with regards to any remotely socially conservative agenda. This happened in 2013 when Gass pushed for amendment to the Constitution that basically outlawed most all restrictions on abortion, in response to the Mideast Abortion statute that passed that year. There were two competative regional elections and a high turnout referendum that ultimately tossed out the said legislation by two votes, and this in a region that at the time was 50% Federalist, and had been dominated by Conservatives for five years.

There is this desire to coddle the regions, to take away any and all responsibility, and I use that word intentionally as opposed to rights or powers. If regions have no responsibilities, their officeholders and the votes cast in elections for such, are pointless endeavors. By leaving important matters in their hands, is how you force competition. If a region passes a statute you don't like, the answer in the best interest of the game is, run for Governor or legislature. Th answer most certainly is not to remove that issue from field by the having the feds make decisions for them, so they don't have too.

Devolution is a must or consolidation is a busted flush.


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 02, 2015, 01:18:57 pm
Now, 72 hours for delegates to propose a list of powers that should belong to the federal government.

When the 72 hours period expires, I'll open a principle vote and all powers mentioned by a majority of voting delegates will be inserted in the new text of the Constitution.

All other powers (so those not denied to federal government) will be belong to the regional governments. So we'll say "All remaining powers are belong to the regional governments."


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 02, 2015, 02:51:33 pm
Now, 72 hours for delegates to propose a list of powers that should belong to the federal government.

When the 72 hours period expires, I'll open a principle vote and all powers mentioned by a majority of voting delegates will be inserted in the new text of the Constitution. All other powers will be denied to the regional governments, as we'll insert all powers approved by ConCon and then we'll say "All remaining powers are denied to the regional governments."

     Don't you mean denied to the federal government?


Title: Re: Powers denied to federal govt (Senate) and regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 02, 2015, 03:22:46 pm
Updated it. Sorry for the confusion (I'm not an US citizen :p )


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 02, 2015, 03:24:22 pm
So we should propose powers that we want to belong only to the federal government. Powers with a majority of votes will be inserted in the constitution. All other powers will be belong to the regional governments. It's clear?


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 02, 2015, 04:36:19 pm
I propose that the federal government be granted the following powers:

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions
12. To guarantee access to medical care
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
14. To establish the minimum wage
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
17. To establish a central national bank
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

Numbers 1-9 are lifted from the US Constitution; the rest are powers that logically need to be executed at the national level to avoid confusion (ie: financial policy).


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 02, 2015, 08:05:39 pm
My counter proposal

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To make laws regarding borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
12. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
13. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
14. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on November 02, 2015, 08:57:40 pm
I support JCL's proposal.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 03, 2015, 01:59:26 am
I support JCL's proposal as well.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 03, 2015, 05:48:52 am
My counter proposal

1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures
6. To establish post offices and post roads
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union
11. To make laws regarding borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds
12. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments
13. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote
14. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law
15. To regulate federal elections
Added something about federal elections - not 100% sure it's the best wording though.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: bore on November 03, 2015, 06:17:54 am
I support Truman's proposal.

JCL's would lead to a federal government that's larger than ever without the power to actually do anything, which would lead to a lot of thumb twiddling.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 03, 2015, 11:48:11 am
Maybe something like:

"To regulate voter registration and federal elections"?  This is something that it makes sense for Atlasia to have a "national" policy on, given the size of the simulation.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 03, 2015, 06:13:41 pm
I support Truman's proposal.

JCL's would lead to a federal government that's larger than ever without the power to actually do anything, which would lead to a lot of thumb twiddling.

How so?


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 03, 2015, 07:13:12 pm
I can understand why some people might object to the energy policy and medical care parts of my proposal; I am bemused, however, as to why anyone would oppose having a federal minimum wage, or to having a national bank.

As conservatives are so fond of point out, Regions unilaterally raising and lowering the minimum wage will cause wages and employment to plummet, as companies will inevitably move their base of operations to the Region with the lowest minimum wage. The only way to prevent that is to have a national minimum wage that is the same in every Region. (If there is anyone who thinks that we should abolish the minimum wage entirely, I would remind them of the Gilded Age as an excellent example of why this does not work).

Likewise, it is quite obvious that we need some kind of Federal Reserve to keep borrowing and lending from getting out of control. I realize that many conservatives like to lambast the Fed as an evil, job-killing cabal controlled by bankers and lobbyists, but that's not actually how it works. If we deny the federal government the right to establish some kind of national bank, I guarantee that the economy will crash before the end of the next decade.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 03, 2015, 07:34:03 pm
I can understand why some people might object to the energy policy and medical care parts of my proposal; I am bemused, however, as to why anyone would oppose having a federal minimum wage, or to having a national bank.

As conservatives are so fond of point out, Regions unilaterally raising and lowering the minimum wage will cause wages and employment to plummet, as companies will inevitably move their base of operations to the Region with the lowest minimum wage. The only way to prevent that is to have a national minimum wage that is the same in every Region. (If there is anyone who thinks that we should abolish the minimum wage entirely, I would remind them of the Gilded Age as an excellent example of why this does not work).

Likewise, it is quite obvious that we need some kind of Federal Reserve to keep borrowing and lending from getting out of control. I realize that many conservatives like to lambast the Fed as an evil, job-killing cabal controlled by bankers and lobbyists, but that's not actually how it works. If we deny the federal government the right to establish some kind of national bank, I guarantee that the economy will crash before the end of the next decade.

I'm not exactly a fan of minimum wage but I'm looking at this convention with severe skepticism towards giving the federal government more power than what was given in the 2009 constitutional convention.

As for a centralized federal bank, I have some serious concerns about having one. Look at the Federal Reserve (irl). If the Atlasian one had some strict mechanisms requiring transparency I would be open to it. A full reforming of our governmental financial system would need regulations like Audit the Fed or Glass Steegal to prevent or minimize any possibility of graft and corruption. Also a mandate requiring the House (where all financial bills start from) and the Senate to balance the budget


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: NeverAgain on November 03, 2015, 09:45:33 pm
I can understand why some people might object to the energy policy and medical care parts of my proposal; I am bemused, however, as to why anyone would oppose having a federal minimum wage, or to having a national bank.

As conservatives are so fond of point out, Regions unilaterally raising and lowering the minimum wage will cause wages and employment to plummet, as companies will inevitably move their base of operations to the Region with the lowest minimum wage. The only way to prevent that is to have a national minimum wage that is the same in every Region. (If there is anyone who thinks that we should abolish the minimum wage entirely, I would remind them of the Gilded Age as an excellent example of why this does not work).

Likewise, it is quite obvious that we need some kind of Federal Reserve to keep borrowing and lending from getting out of control. I realize that many conservatives like to lambast the Fed as an evil, job-killing cabal controlled by bankers and lobbyists, but that's not actually how it works. If we deny the federal government the right to establish some kind of national bank, I guarantee that the economy will crash before the end of the next decade.

I'm not exactly a fan of minimum wage but I'm looking at this convention with severe skepticism towards giving the federal government more power than what was given in the 2009 constitutional convention.

As for a centralized federal bank, I have some serious concerns about having one. Look at the Federal Reserve (irl). If the Atlasian one had some strict mechanisms requiring transparency I would be open to it. A full reforming of our governmental financial system would need regulations like Audit the Fed or Glass Steegal to prevent or minimize any possibility of graft and corruption. Also a mandate requiring the House (where all financial bills start from) and the Senate to balance the budget

A Mandated Balanced Budget would not work. If every congress, we were forced to cut important government programs to safe a couple dollars here or there, just for the sake of the "deficit", it would be lunacy. Now don't get me wrong, we should control our deficit, but not mandate it in our constitution. The constitution is about what is doing best for the people, not abandoning good plans for the betterment of Atlasia because we project a deficit.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 03, 2015, 11:19:45 pm
     My concern with Truman's proposal is the redundancy involved. Setting a minimum wage is covered by the commerce clause IIRC; not including it as an explicit power of the federal government isn't going to stop us from having one.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 04, 2015, 12:02:17 am
     My concern with Truman's proposal is the redundancy involved. Setting a minimum wage is covered by the commerce clause IIRC; not including it as an explicit power of the federal government isn't going to stop us from having one.

How is a minimum wage covered under the commerce clause? Is there US court precedent that interpreted it that way?


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 04, 2015, 02:59:30 am
We are going to vote on all proposals, not on Truman's and JCL's texts.
So IIRC we'll vote on 19 proposals. But there's still time to propose other powers that should belong only to fed govt.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 04, 2015, 11:44:52 am
We are going to vote on all proposals, not on Truman's and JCL's texts.
So IIRC we'll vote on 19 proposals. But there's still time to propose other powers that should belong only to fed govt.

Truman and I are proposing seperate yet frameworks to start from. Please don't treat them as mere texts.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 04, 2015, 11:58:32 am
We are going to vote on all proposals, not on Truman's and JCL's texts.
So IIRC we'll vote on 19 proposals. But there's still time to propose other powers that should belong only to fed govt.

Truman and I are proposing seperate yet frameworks to start from. Please don't treat them as mere texts.
Yes, I'm not treating them as texts, but as simple proposals.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 04, 2015, 05:19:46 pm
     My concern with Truman's proposal is the redundancy involved. Setting a minimum wage is covered by the commerce clause IIRC; not including it as an explicit power of the federal government isn't going to stop us from having one.

How is a minimum wage covered under the commerce clause? Is there US court precedent that interpreted it that way?

     United States v. Darby (1941) provides for a federal minimum wage, albeit in somewhat restricted circumstances.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 04, 2015, 10:10:50 pm
    My concern with Truman's proposal is the redundancy involved. Setting a minimum wage is covered by the commerce clause IIRC; not including it as an explicit power of the federal government isn't going to stop us from having one.

How is a minimum wage covered under the commerce clause? Is there US court precedent that interpreted it that way?

     United States v. Darby (1941) provides for a federal minimum wage, albeit in somewhat restricted circumstances.

The decision got unanimous support from the court. Both conservatives and progressive justices which is impressive of a feat.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on November 04, 2015, 11:21:22 pm
Does anybody (who is not opposed to the concept as a matter of principle) think that we need to add something to this that clarifies the ability for the government to regulate regional legislative seat allocation based on its population? Currently, it's in the document, but...


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 05, 2015, 04:44:06 am
     My concern with Truman's proposal is the redundancy involved. Setting a minimum wage is covered by the commerce clause IIRC; not including it as an explicit power of the federal government isn't going to stop us from having one.

And the Fed as well would be covered under the financial regulation clause if not the currency one.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 05, 2015, 04:46:02 am
Does anybody (who is not opposed to the concept as a matter of principle) think that we need to add something to this that clarifies the ability for the government to regulate regional legislative seat allocation based on its population? Currently, it's in the document, but...


Probaby so I would imagine.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 05, 2015, 05:29:27 pm
Does anybody (who is not opposed to the concept as a matter of principle) think that we need to add something to this that clarifies the ability for the government to regulate regional legislative seat allocation based on its population? Currently, it's in the document, but...


Probaby so I would imagine.

    Isn't the point to be vague now and clarify in statute? That's what I've been gathering here.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 06, 2015, 08:52:48 am
A 48-hours vote is now open.

Should the following powers be granted to the federal government?
Remember that all remaining powers (those not granted to federal government) will be granted to regional governments.

Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: tmthforu94 on November 06, 2015, 02:43:16 pm
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. AYE
12. AYE
13. AYE
14. AYE
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. AYE
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 06, 2015, 02:54:57 pm
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. AYE
12. AYE
13. AYE
14. AYE
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. AYE
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 06, 2015, 03:51:30 pm
Aye to all with the exception of 14

14.  Nay

Minimum wage should be set by the regions for their own region


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 06, 2015, 04:37:24 pm
Aye to all with the exception of 14

14.  Nay

Minimum wage should be set by the regions for their own region
That's all right in theory, but in reality this will only drive down wages. Regional politicians gunning for a short-term drop in unemployment will seek to pass lower and lower minimum wage laws, creating a cycle where other Regions have to lower their minimum wage to stay competitive. A national standard is the only way to go on this issue.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: bore on November 06, 2015, 05:12:21 pm
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. AYE
12. AYE
13. AYE
14. AYE
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. AYE
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: MadmanMotley on November 07, 2015, 12:46:54 am
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. AYE
12. AYE
13. AYE
14. NAY
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. AYE
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 07, 2015, 12:56:55 am

1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. NAY
12. NAY
13. NAY
14. NAY
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. NAY
18. AYE
19. AYE



Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on November 07, 2015, 01:02:03 am
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. AYE
12. AYE
13. AYE
14. AYE
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. AYE
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on November 07, 2015, 01:16:10 am
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 07, 2015, 04:22:24 am
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 07, 2015, 08:53:09 am
I will abstain.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on November 07, 2015, 01:50:28 pm
Quote
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain



Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 07, 2015, 01:57:09 pm
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 07, 2015, 02:51:04 pm
1. Aye
2. Aye
3. Aye
4. Aye
5. Aye
6. Aye
7. Aye
8. Aye
9. Aye
10. Aye
11. Nay
12. Aye
13. Aye
14. Nay
15. Aye
16. Aye
17. Aye
18. Aye
19. Aye


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: VPH on November 07, 2015, 03:25:40 pm
Should the following powers be granted to the federal government?
Remember that all remaining powers (those not granted to federal government) will be granted to regional governments.

Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Oakvale on November 07, 2015, 03:31:42 pm
Should the following powers be granted to the federal government?

Remember that all remaining powers (those not granted to federal government) will be granted to regional governments.

Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

NO

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

NO

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

NO

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

NO

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

NO

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

NO

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

NO

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

NO

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

NO

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

NO

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

NO

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

NO
Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

NO

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

NO

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

NO

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

YES

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

NO

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

NO

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

NO


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Classic Conservative on November 07, 2015, 03:46:17 pm
1. AYE
2. AYE
3. AYE
4. AYE
5. AYE
6. AYE
7. AYE
8. AYE
9. AYE
10. AYE
11. NAY
12. NAY
13. NAY
14. NAY
15. AYE
16. AYE
17. NAY
18. AYE
19. AYE


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Clark Kent on November 07, 2015, 06:35:29 pm
Should the following powers be granted to the federal government?
Remember that all remaining powers (those not granted to federal government) will be granted to regional governments.

Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

  • Yes [] No [] Abstain
Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain
[/quote]


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 07, 2015, 06:59:34 pm
Yes to all.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: NeverAgain on November 07, 2015, 11:45:49 pm
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Biden/Abrams Voter on November 08, 2015, 12:15:07 am
AYE to all


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Leinad on November 08, 2015, 12:33:03 am
Hmmm...lots of hard questions, but some easy ones as well...I think this would work:

Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 08, 2015, 06:32:15 am
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on November 08, 2015, 08:10:47 am
am i still a delegate?
Quote
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

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2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

[] Yes [X] No [] Abstain

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

[] Yes [] No [X] Abstain

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

[X] Yes [] No [] Abstain



Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 08, 2015, 01:30:41 pm
Quote
1. To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts, and excises, and to distribute the revenue thus collected

ADOPTED

Quote
2. To regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce

ADOPTED

Quote
3. To establish uniform laws of naturalization

ADOPTED

Quote
4. To regulate the value and coinage of the national currency

ADOPTED

Quote
5. To establish a uniform system of weights and measures

ADOPTED

Quote
6. To establish post offices and post roads

ADOPTED

Quote
7. To define and punish crimes committed on the high seas

ADOPTED

Quote
8. To declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water

ADOPTED

Quote
9. To raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces

ADOPTED

Quote
10. To admit new states and territories to the Union

ADOPTED

Quote
11. To set policy for energy and fuel emissions

NOT ADOPTED

Quote
12. To guarantee access to medical care

TIE

Quote
13. To make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds

ADOPTED

Quote
14. To establish the minimum wage

NOT ADOPTED

Quote
15. To confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments

ADOPTED

Quote
16. To impeach members of the executive and judicial branches by a 2/3 vote

ADOPTED

Quote
17. To establish a central national bank

ADOPTED

Quote
18. To make all laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law

ADOPTED

Quote
19. To regulate voter registration and federal elections

ADOPTED


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Classic Conservative on November 08, 2015, 01:32:50 pm
If a vote it is a tie it isn't adopted correct.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 09, 2015, 12:13:00 pm
Aye to all


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 09, 2015, 07:32:34 pm
If a vote it is a tie it isn't adopted correct.
There's nothing in the rules about this either way: however, I can see no reasonable argument for a tie vote representing a positive consensus. I will therefore consider Proposal 12 to have been rejected.


Title: Re: Powers of federal govt (Senate) and of regional govts. (VOTE ON FED GOVT POWERS)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 09, 2015, 08:21:51 pm
If a vote it is a tie it isn't adopted correct.
There's nothing in the rules about this either way: however, I can see no reasonable argument for a tie vote representing a positive consensus. I will therefore consider Proposal 12 to have been rejected.

I concur.  In almost any legislative jurisdiction, a vote is considered lost on a tie, unless there is an officer who is eligible to cast a tie breaking vote.