Talk Elections

Atlas Fantasy Elections => Constitutional Convention => Topic started by: Senator Cris on October 09, 2015, 08:01:25 am



Title: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 09, 2015, 08:01:25 am
This thread will be about structure and size of the Senate.

Constitution articles about it:

Quote
Article I

All Legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in the Senate of the Republic of Atlasia.

Section 1: The Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of ten Senators, each with a term of four months.
2. No Person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, whose account is not at least 60 days old, and is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. The Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia shall be the President of the Senate, but shall have no vote unless they be equally divided.
4. The Senate shall choose their other officers, and also a President pro tempore, who shall act as President of the Senate in the absence of the Vice President.

Section 2: Impeachment
1. In the same manner as the proposition of a Bill, Articles of Impeachment may be proposed against any executive or judicial officer of the federal government. Impeachment proceedings shall be initiated only when at least three Senators have publicly announced their support of the Articles.
2. Upon the introduction of articles of impeachment with the stated support of three Senators,23 the Senate shall be impaneled as a grand jury to consider these Articles of Impeachment; In considering these Articles, the Chief Justice shall preside, unless it is his own impeachment, in which case the President of the Senate shall preside. 60% majority vote of the Senate under quorum rules will be necessary to impeach the Officer and subsequently initiate a public poll to try the impeachment, while an 80% vote of the Senate under quorum rules shall not require a public poll to be tried.
3. In the event that less than 80% but at least a 60% majority of the Senate votes to impeach, the People shall have sole power to try such impeachments. The Chief Justice shall administer a public poll to try the impeachment, unless it is the Chief Justice who shall have been impeached, in which case the Senate President pro tempore shall administer the public poll. The public poll shall be held for seventy-two hours and shall require the consent of a majority voting to convict. Citizens shall make their vote publicly known in the form of a post.
4. Upon conviction by the People, or by 80% of the Senate voting in the affirmative, the officer shall be removed from office immediately. Any person convicted upon impeachment shall be disqualified from holding any office under the Republic of Atlasia for a time period explicitly specified in the Articles of Impeachment.

Section 3: Senate Rules and Legislation
1. The Senate may establish rules for its own proceedings, and with the concurrence of two-thirds of its number, expel a Senator.
2. The Senate shall have fulfilled a quorum if a majority of its members are capable of discharging their offices and sworn into office. A quorum of Senators shall have voted on any Resolution, Bill, Impeachment or Constitutional Amendment for it to be considered valid.
3. For any Bill or Resolution to pass the Senate, it shall have gained a majority in a valid vote. Before the Bill or Resolution becomes Law, it shall be presented to the President of the Republic of Atlasia, unless it be concerning the rules for the proceedings of the Senate. If the President approves, he shall sign it, and it shall become Law. If the President does not approve, he shall return the Bill with his objections to the Senate, and it shall not become Law. Upon reconsidering the Bill, if the Senate shall approve the legislation by two-thirds of its number, it shall become Law. If a Bill is not returned to the Senate by the President within seven days after it shall have been presented to him, it shall become Law regardless.
4. Whensoever the Senate shall pass a bill and present it to the President, he shall have the option to redraft the bill and return it to the Senate in redrafted form. The President shall have this option once with each particular bill presented to him. The original sponsor of the bill, as so defined in Senate rules, shall either file a motion to approve the Presidentís redraft by a simple majority vote, and return it to the President for his signature or veto, or withdraw the bill from the Senate. If the Senate approves the President's redraft by a simple majority vote, the redrafted bill shall be returned to the President for his signature or veto. If the Senate rejects the President's redraft, the original sponsor shall either file a motion to send the original draft of the bill back to the President for his signature or veto, or shall direct the Senate to resume debate on the bill as presented to the President.

Section 4: Elections to the Senate
1. The Senate shall be divided into two classes: Class A, which shall comprise the Senators elected from the Regions, and Class B, which shall comprise Senators elected by a form of proportional representation. Each class shall be limited to 5 Senators. Regions shall not elect more than one Senator for Class A.
2. Elections for the seats in Class A shall be held in the months of February, June and October; Elections for the seats in Class B shall be held in the months of April, August and December.
3. Regular elections to the Senate shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on the Thursday preceding the penultimate Friday of the month and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the penultimate Friday itself, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, except in the month of December. Regular elections to the Senate in the month of December shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on the Thursday preceding the second Friday of the month and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the second Friday itself, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
4. Any vacancy occurring in a Class A Senate seat shall be filled according to the laws of the respective region. If a region does not have any law for filling the vacancy, then the Governor of that Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term.
5. If a vacancy shall occur in a Class B Senate seat more than twenty-one days before the regularly scheduled election for that seat, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term within one week of the vacancy occurring; Special elections to the Senate shall begin within ten days of the vacancy occurring and shall begin between midnight Eastern Standard Time on a Thursday and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday thereafter, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
6. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine regulations for the procedure of and the form of Senate elections and shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post. The exact time at which a given election or vote shall begin may be determined by the voting booth administrator subject to such restrictions as may be imposed by Law
7. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Standard Time on the first Friday in the month after their election. Those elected in special elections to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.

Section 5: Powers of the Senate
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 6: Powers denied to the Senate
Discussion about it in another thread.

Section 7: Powers denied to the Regions
Discussion about it in another thread.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on October 09, 2015, 08:36:19 am
might be an interesting idea to replace the senate with an amalgam of every regional legislature, meeting together. would certainly rekindle interest in regional governments, although obviously there'd have to be some kind of regulation on the sizes of regional legislatures.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 09, 2015, 08:47:15 am
If someone wants to discuss about bicameralism, this is the right thread.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 09, 2015, 10:35:37 am
In my view, a bicameral legislature is not practical for Atlasia at this time.

I do not believe we should be adding another layer of government to consider and debate legislation, unless increased activity warrants such a move.

If we do go to three regions, then we should have a Senate of nine, in order to have three Senators per region.  

I realize there may be some who would prefer two Senators per region, for a Senate of six.

Both of these options should be considered.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 09, 2015, 03:39:25 pm
might be an interesting idea to replace the senate with an amalgam of every regional legislature, meeting together. would certainly rekindle interest in regional governments, although obviously there'd have to be some kind of regulation on the sizes of regional legislatures.

     This is a really cool idea, and one that I would support. It would efficiently cut down on the number of offices while also maintaining a real place for the regions.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 09, 2015, 03:44:26 pm
might be an interesting idea to replace the senate with an amalgam of every regional legislature, meeting together. would certainly rekindle interest in regional governments, although obviously there'd have to be some kind of regulation on the sizes of regional legislatures.
Thing is it would be very confusing, I couldn't really support this I thing the two regional senators per region and then 2 at large senators would be a much better idea.


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 09, 2015, 07:09:23 pm
As I said in the Regional thread, we really need to wipe the slate clean before rebuilding the government. I therefore propose the following amendment:

Quote
Article [TBD]

[Placeholder text]


Title: Re: Structure and size of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 10, 2015, 02:48:49 am
As I said in the Regional thread, we really need to wipe the slate clean before rebuilding the government. I therefore propose the following amendment:

Quote
Article [TBD]

[Placeholder text]

Delegates have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 10, 2015, 02:52:23 am
We can definitely accommodate bicameralism in the new game - as I have explained like fifty-eight times at this point - but it will require firm regulation as to how many (legislative) offices each region can have at a given time, preferably through a formula that reduces the number of legislators for a region if it becomes either too small or too large as a percentage of the game's population.

Something like:

Idea #1 (My Favorite Idea)
  • <25% of the game's population = 3 Legislators
  • 25-40% of the game's population = 5 Legislators
  • >40% of the game's population = 3 Legislators


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 10, 2015, 02:53:17 am
I object to the Truman's amendment, only because Sections 5, 6, 7 of this Article are being discussed in another thread.
I'd suggest to wipe only Sections 1, 2, 3, 4 of this Article.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 10, 2015, 01:11:35 pm
I object to the Truman's amendment, only because Sections 5, 6, 7 of this Article are being discussed in another thread.

If my fellow delegates would prefer, I would be happy to introduce a separate amendment dealing with Sections 5, 6, and 7 in the Senate Powers thread.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Marokai Backbeat on October 10, 2015, 03:20:54 pm
I think there's room for bicameralism, especially with one of the houses being formed by the regions in some way which people have been arguing for in one form or another since like 2008, and I support the idea in theory, but the devil is in the details.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Lumine on October 10, 2015, 03:29:13 pm
I don't feel the problem with bicameralism is the number of offices, it's the legislative process.

Look, there are constant complains of the Senate legislative process being slow and "byzantine" to some, and considering the lenght of the terms it takes time to get things done. Wouldn't having two legislative chambers to debate the bills just slow down the legislative process too much?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 10, 2015, 03:30:16 pm
I object to the Truman's amendment, only because Sections 5, 6, 7 of this Article are being discussed in another thread.

If my fellow delegates would prefer, I would be happy to introduce a separate amendment dealing with Sections 5, 6, and 7 in the Senate Powers thread.
I think it would be fine.
Should I interpretate that as a withdraw of your amendment and then a new amendment to wipe Sections 1, 2, 3, 4?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 10, 2015, 04:24:57 pm
I object to the Truman's amendment, only because Sections 5, 6, 7 of this Article are being discussed in another thread.

If my fellow delegates would prefer, I would be happy to introduce a separate amendment dealing with Sections 5, 6, and 7 in the Senate Powers thread.
I think it would be fine.
Should I interpretate that as a withdraw of your amendment and then a new amendment to wipe Sections 1, 2, 3, 4?

Yes, I withdraw my first amendment and introduce this one in its stead:

Quote
Sections 1, 2, 3, and 4 of Article I are amended to read as follows:
Article [TBD]

[Placeholder Text]


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 10, 2015, 04:36:17 pm
Delegates have 24 hours to object to the new Truman's amendment.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 10, 2015, 05:25:44 pm
We can definitely accommodate bicameralism in the new game - as I have explained like fifty-eight times at this point - but it will require firm regulation as to how many (legislative) offices each region can have at a given time, preferably through a formula that reduces the number of legislators for a region if it becomes either too small or too large as a percentage of the game's population.

Something like:

Idea #1 (My Favorite Idea)
  • <25% of the game's population = 3 Legislators
  • 25-40% of the game's population = 5 Legislators
  • >40% of the game's population = 3 Legislators

     Formula approach is nice, but it would probably benefit from also depending on the size of the country. Say, make the number of Legislators relate to the number of voters in the last Presidential election.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 12, 2015, 10:43:06 am
The amendment has been adopted.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 12, 2015, 12:20:22 pm
When speaking of Senate, this is my preferred plan:

- 3 regions;
- 7 Senate seats: 3 per region and 1 elected At-Large.

At-Large elections for 5 seats are one of the evils of this game. At-Large elections for 1 seat are one of the most beautiful things of this game, so this is my preferred plan.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 12, 2015, 02:19:13 pm
6 member senate and a 9-11 member House of Representatives. One elected entirely at large and the other entirely at the regional level. We've had this plan in place for years. Now is the time to implement it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Talleyrand on October 12, 2015, 03:22:43 pm
Bicameralism is totally unsustainable (and I say this as someone who thinks it would be enjoyable), and we need to be cutting down the number of offices, not increasing them.

I have two proposals here.

If we are going with 3 regions-

3 regional Senators in Class A elected with the president.

6 district Senators (2 per region) elected in Class B midterms.

If we are going with 2 regions.

4 district senators (2 per region) elected with the President.

5 at-large Senators elected in the Class B midterms.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 12, 2015, 03:27:31 pm
The plan that implements a bicameral government does not increase the amount of offices. I wrote a full memo explaining this years ago. I'd never advocate any system where we increase the number of offices. We have too many already.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Talleyrand on October 12, 2015, 03:54:19 pm
The plan that implements a bicameral government does not increase the amount of offices. I wrote a full memo explaining this years ago. I'd never advocate any system where we increase the number of offices. We have too many already.

Alright, but remind me how big of a change that would create again (I don't really remember). The plan I've proposed would create somewhere between 24-30 offices total.

The other issue with bicameralism is that with such a big federal government, you might see the same bills stay bogged down in the legislature for a long period of time over technicalities. I do like the idea of some organized partisanship or the like, but I feel like it would be hard to work through in this game.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 12, 2015, 03:57:02 pm
As much as I think bicameralism would be fun, I worry that it would slow the legislative process while only minimally reducing the number of offices.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 12, 2015, 04:02:16 pm
As much as I think bicameralism would be fun, I worry that it would slow the legislative process while only minimally reducing the number of offices.

     It's not like we're in a hurry to push through bills dealing with real crises. Slowing the legislative process is alright if it makes the game more fun.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on October 12, 2015, 04:05:31 pm
proposal:

lower house composed of regional legislatures (19 offices under current system → 19 offices in new system)

upper house composed of regional governors (5 offices under current system → 5 offices in new system)

keep president, cabinet, supreme court (9 offices under current system → 9 offices in new system)

abolish vp, current senate, other regional offices (16 offices under current system → 0 offices in new system)

cuts total offices by 1/3, no reduction in regions necessary.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 12, 2015, 04:08:36 pm
I couldn't not support that a confederation is not the right way to go, UNION FOREVER!!!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 12, 2015, 04:13:24 pm
proposal:

lower house composed of regional legislatures (19 offices under current system → 19 offices in new system)

upper house composed of regional governors (5 offices under current system → 5 offices in new system)

keep president, cabinet, supreme court (9 offices under current system → 9 offices in new system)

abolish vp, current senate, other regional offices (16 offices under current system → 0 offices in new system)

cuts total offices by 1/3, no reduction in regions necessary.

     I like this proposal a lot.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 12, 2015, 04:17:13 pm
I applaud Evergreen for finding a way to cut so many offices. Sadly, her proposal upends the balance of power between the Regions and the national government (in that it eliminates it entirely). I suppose its not a bad plan if you want to replace the federal system with a confederation, but I don't think that's the way to go.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Talleyrand on October 12, 2015, 04:29:03 pm
Evergreen's idea is a good one if we go with a confederation, but I think the idea behind the convention should be to preserve the basis behind Atlasia as a presidential republic as much as possible, while hopefully making it more competitive and cutting down on the bureaucratic, legalistic bulk.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Leinad on October 13, 2015, 01:06:33 am
I like bicameralism, BUT...does it lower seats enough? Yes, I know it doesn't add any seats. I get it, we still decrease seats by a good bit due to the regional consolidation. But obviously we could have even fewer seats by only having one house. Of course 6 Senators and 9 Representatives is more than 7 Senators and no representatives (change numbers slightly and it's still true), as fun as bicameralism would certainly be.

We should answer a question: what's the target number of seats? Just a general number. And then we can determine something that would get us close to that. Current number of seats: executive branch (7) + legislative branch (10) + judicial branch (3) + regional governors (5) + regional legislatures (19) + other regional offices (5, I think) = 49 total officers. How many of those people are inactive? We need to have more active people than offices to keep things interesting.

Now, I kind of like Evergreen's idea, BUT...the multi-tiered system is there for a reason. Newer people can get introduced to the game via the regional legislature, now they go straight to federal government. Another reason, which is even better, is that it's good to separate the regional governments with the federal--we'd lose a lot of additional dynamics in the game if we do that.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 13, 2015, 01:54:17 am
6 member senate and a 9-11 member House of Representatives. One elected entirely at large and the other entirely at the regional level. We've had this plan in place for years. Now is the time to implement it.

^ This, it was the best aspect of the Duke plan two years ago and it remains so it my opinion. It might be better to go with a smaller house component in the current environment though like say 7 to 9 instead of 9 to 11.


Duke, I would recommend posting an outline of your original plan. Is it still on google docs?



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 13, 2015, 07:55:09 am
I propose we act about this matter after that the number of regions is established in the other thread.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 13, 2015, 11:32:43 am
I propose we act about this matter after that the number of regions is established in the other thread.
Seconded.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 13, 2015, 12:14:31 pm
The number of regions is the hinge on which everything else swings, so it definately needs to be decided first. Once that is decided, then this becomes the next stage because whether or not we have bicameralism influences the VP decision and so forth.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on October 14, 2015, 11:27:07 am
Favoring bicameralism, but even though I know it won't work, I'm on with giving parliamentary a try.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 14, 2015, 05:16:26 pm
The trouble is, we already have a Mock Parliament game on the forum. I don't think there's a need for a second one.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 15, 2015, 01:25:56 am
Indeed, having two games means one can be tailored to suit the Parliamentary prefering players whilst the other can cater to those who dislike it. In that way it allows for the players to have more enjoyable experience by allowing them to elect to participate in their preferred design.




Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 15, 2015, 05:56:06 pm
I'll post my original plan from 2013 when I get home. It surely needs tweaking but most of the questions that we have are answered in it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 15, 2015, 05:57:04 pm
But yes I wholly oppose making this game a parliamentary style game.  If we want to kill the game once and for all we can do that, otherwise I see why both games cannot coexist as they are currently.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 18, 2015, 03:14:09 am
Duke? Its been three days?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 26, 2015, 01:32:34 pm
We already know there will be 3 regions, so we should start to work on this.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 26, 2015, 01:43:03 pm
I motion for a principle vote on whether to establish a unicameral or a bicameral legislature.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 26, 2015, 01:50:55 pm
My proposal:

        A senate composed by 7 senators:
-2 senators per region: 1 of them elected by the popular vote, the other by the regional legislature.
- Make the VP a senator so we won't have to deal with activity issues anymore (of course he won't be able to break the tie).



- Why keeping the regional system?
Basically, 2 games coexist. I'm not a specialist of AAD but I think that they are all elected at large. This is important to make 2 different games, in order to make them both attractive.

-Why making 3 senators elected by state legislature?
Simply, regional activity has always been much lower tha federal activity, and that's a shame because I have always preferred my time in the region than in Nyman.

-Why keeping the VP and making him a senator? For these following reasons:
    - A ticket of 2 persons (P/VP) greatly encourages multipartism. Indeed considering there are 2 posts, parties are basically forced to ally with at least an another party. If there is just the VP, it would strongly encourage bipartism. And bipartism sucks. Multipartism is much more interesting in term of gameplay etc etc.
    - People have always struggled to make this office active, no there won't be any problem with that considering he will be a full senator.
    - If there are 6 senators, a tie will often and it needs to be broken. So 7 senators would be better, because there would be much less tie.





Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 26, 2015, 02:11:28 pm
I think Windjammer's plan is a good one.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 26, 2015, 02:23:23 pm
     Windjammer's plan is quite interesting. I would posit though that we should consider a holistic approach that also takes into account regional offices, so we have a complete picture of the number of offices in Atlasia.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 26, 2015, 02:41:20 pm
     Windjammer's plan is quite interesting. I would posit though that we should consider a holistic approach that also takes into account regional offices, so we have a complete picture of the number of offices in Atlasia.

Let's go!

Currently there are:
-The president, VP and the cabinet: 8 offices
-The senate: 10 offices
-5 governors
-3 supreme court justices
-5 regional court justices
-2 Lt governor: Mideast and MW
-19 members of state legislatures (5 for NE and ME, 3 for SE, PA and MW)

TOTAL: 52 offices


With my plan:
The president and the cabinet:
- President
-Attorney General
-SoIA
-SoEA
- RG
-SoFA
-Game moderator
= 7 offices

The senate: 7 offices

The Supreme court: 3 offices

The Governors: 3 offices

The region supreme court: 3 offices

And now the members of the states legislatures: I have the feeling 2 regions will have 3 representatives and one 5 representatives: so 11 representatives

TOTAL: 33 offices


So 19 offices less! Quite a big.


I would favor as well letting people have 2 offices in some cases. For example, I see no problem that a senator is as well a member of a state legislature. Or the SoEA being at the same time the SoIA, the RG being at the same time the SoFE etc etc. Of course, the president should never be allowed to have an another office. If we allow letting people have 2 offices, the number of officeholders would basically be cut by half I guess if we compare with the current situation.




 


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 26, 2015, 02:50:07 pm
I've never been a fan of the odd number senate or having 6 regional and 1 at large. Just seems clunky and not streamlined enough for my liking. I think we still need an even numbered senate and odd number house.

If I didn't post my original plan from September 2013 here I'll do it when I'm back at my laptop. It has everything laid out in a simplistic manner with explanations for everything.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 26, 2015, 02:52:23 pm
I like the idea of bicameralism, but I won't support that because cutting the number of offices should be the top priority.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 26, 2015, 05:10:39 pm
I like the idea of bicameralism, but I won't support that because cutting the number of offices should be the top priority.

     I agree; bicameralism would be really cool, though I fear it may be impractical under the current circumstances. I remain open to other suggestions, but I like this one a lot.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 26, 2015, 05:19:04 pm
Honestly, I think we should adopt unicameralism for this time. If the new version of this game works well, I would be open to bicameralism. But reducing the number of offices should be right now our most important goal.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 26, 2015, 05:52:46 pm
As I have stated previously, bicameralism is a complete non starter for me.

I do not believe it is practical, and it would simply bog down the legislative process needlessly.

Besides, we could not support it with the required personnel at this time.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Clark Kent on October 26, 2015, 06:28:26 pm
While bicameralism works better in real life, in-game for Atlasia, a unicameral legislature is ideal with the current low activity.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 27, 2015, 01:18:46 am
I stand by the Duke plan, I think it is the most practical way to handle a legislative arrangement in a three region environment. I would however suggest a smaller house than the one he had originally, so maybe 7 instead of 11.

That still leaves a net 13 reduction on offices overall.

A single At-Large Senator, or VP acting as an At-Large senator serves no purpose other than to ensure there isn't a tie. We should consider the consituency being represented. He represents the majority of the nation, and yet that national majority would invariably be outvoted whenever two region's (4 Senators) section interests differ from that that of the national one. One of the benefits of the present system, is that such is impossible.

In the past, many argued this is rarely ever a situation, but we will soon have Regional Senators advancing sectional interests that are indead hostile to the national interest. I think therefore that ensuring the national majority has an equal seat at the table is of paramount importance, now that we have a tangible example facing us.  A People's House like that in the Duke plan, address this concern.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 27, 2015, 09:02:40 am
Are you ok with a principle vote on bicameralism?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 27, 2015, 10:09:44 pm
     I think we should go ahead with a principle vote.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 28, 2015, 02:30:55 am
If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of a class of Senators dedicated to representing the people of the nation in Nyman.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: bore on October 28, 2015, 07:05:59 am
If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of a class of Senators dedicated to representing the people of the nation in Nyman.

If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of atlasia as a country that doesn't randomly torture kittens.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: ilikeverin on October 28, 2015, 09:09:32 am
Wait, why would we want a bicameral system?  We're already sustaining the unsustainable regions under this system; I don't know why we need another level of government.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 28, 2015, 01:02:51 pm
Wait, why would we want a bicameral system?  We're already sustaining the unsustainable regions under this system; I don't know why we need another level of government.

Obviously, we don't.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 28, 2015, 01:22:10 pm
Bicameralism doesn't add offices. It reduces them by nearly 15. I would never propose any plan that increases offices.

The plan increases the number of elections we have(this IS an election game), shortens terms, gives the VP a job, allows people to participate in the federal government by representing their region and makes the senate more of an at large elected body.

You can vote it down if you wish, but it's the only plan being proposed that actually changes the game and makes it interesting agsin by introducing a new dynamic we haven't experienced before without alienating a huge group of people that would leave if it became a mock parliament.

This plan was well thought would and explained in my September 2013 memorandum. It balances a lot of requests and sets the game up for long term success. And again, it REDUCES the number of offices. There will be no supporting even more offices. It would make the game fun agsin without breaking it

That's what I want.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Senator Cris on October 28, 2015, 04:38:10 pm
It's time for a principle vote. It'll last 48 hours.

What legislative system do you support?

[ ] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 28, 2015, 04:39:03 pm
Unicameralism


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 28, 2015, 05:35:16 pm
What legislative system do you support?

[ ] Bicameralism
[X] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain



I cast this vote reluctantly, as I do like the idea of bicameralism from a theoretical standpoint. Ultimately, however, I was forced to the conclusion that establishing a second legislative house is unwise at the present juncture - not for the usual reasons of governmental bloating or legislative gridlock, but out of concern for a quality whose absence has been one of the driving forces behind Atlasia's decline: competition.

Let us, for a moment, consider the smallest rendition of bicameralism thus far proposed: a 6 member Senate coupled with a 7 member House. Assuming each Region adopts a 5 man government, that would leave us with a total of 36 elected and appointed positions nationwide, or 12 less than the current 48. Unless we want every candidate for office to run unopposed, however, the number of active citizens needed to sustain such a state of affairs is actually much more than that. At minimum, a total of 58 active users would need to be more-or-less continually involved in the game (35 officers, plus 23 challengers for each elected position), and even then we would just barely have enough people to field two candidates for every office in every election. A hypothetical election in which every federal office was on the ballot (the president and VP, 6 Senators, and 7 Representatives) would require 30 candidates in order for every race to be competitive (if only half the Senate is elected every two months, the number would fall to 24). By contrast, last weekend's federal election saw a total of 14 candidates appear on the ballot, plus two write-in candidates for Midwest Senate.

If someone has a brilliant strategy for tripling the number of active office-seakers, I'm all ears; as for myself, I see no way to establish a meaningful bicameral system without unwittingly giving rise to a non-competitve party system.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 28, 2015, 05:54:24 pm
What legislative system do you support?

[X] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain

I think we could have two five member houses.

1x1 - President
5x1 - Senate
5x1 - House of Representatives
1x3 - Governors
5x3 - Regional Representatives.

29 elected officials.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 28, 2015, 06:46:12 pm
Bicameral

Opportunity to be a voice in our government will drive activity in ways one on one recruitment won't plus this could be a workable compromise towards those of us that consolidation will negatively impact.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on October 28, 2015, 07:59:45 pm
Unicameralism


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: VPH on October 28, 2015, 08:34:23 pm
It's time for a principle vote. It'll last 48 hours.

What legislative system do you support?

[ X ] Bicameralism
[  ] Unicameralism
[  ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: NeverAgain on October 28, 2015, 08:59:57 pm
[ X ] Bicameralism
[  ] Unicameralism
[  ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 28, 2015, 09:06:23 pm
[  ] Bicameralism
[X] Unicameralism

What legislative system do you support?

[X] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain

I think we could have two five member houses.

1x1 - President
5x1 - Senate
5x1 - House of Representatives
1x3 - Governors
5x3 - Regional Representatives.

29 elected officials.

     I will say, axing the Cabinet is a truly bold proposal. I fear it would create too many problems to be worth it, however.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 28, 2015, 10:48:30 pm
Ultimately it is a nice idea, but I find it to be unpractical at this point.

What legislative system do you support?

[ ] Bicameralism
[X] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 28, 2015, 10:51:48 pm
[X] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 28, 2015, 11:33:50 pm
[X]bicameralism


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 12:11:56 am
What legislative system do you support?

[X] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 12:13:31 am
Wait, why would we want a bicameral system?  We're already sustaining the unsustainable regions under this system; I don't know why we need another level of government.

Obviously, we don't.

It is not another layer of gov't. It is reorganizing the the legislative branch.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 12:15:38 am
What legislative system do you support?

[X] Bicameralism
[ ] Unicameralism
[ ] Abstain

I think we could have two five member houses.

1x1 - President
5x1 - Senate
5x1 - House of Representatives
1x3 - Governors
5x3 - Regional Representatives.

29 elected officials.

The Senate would have to go up to 6 or down to three since we have three regions.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 12:18:26 am
If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of a class of Senators dedicated to representing the people of the nation in Nyman.

If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of atlasia as a country that doesn't randomly torture kittens.

That sounds wonderfull. However, the anti-Kitten brigade has not elected any Regional Senators as of yet. Such cannot be said of the secessionists, who have elected a Regional Senator dedicated to the cause of seperatism. While he is perfectly free to represent the sectional interests of his region in such capacity, it is contrary the interests of the nation and therefore the great people of this land must be representated or we are no longer a Federal Republic.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Oakvale on October 29, 2015, 01:00:15 am
  • bicameralism I guess

And the Cabinet should obviously be destroyed. SoEA, SoIA, Home Affairs, whatever. Noo one has ever, ever, ever cared.

The only worthwhile position is that of Attorney General, and that's only useful when someone competent holds the job.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 29, 2015, 05:46:28 am
Unicameralism


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Leinad on October 29, 2015, 06:00:29 am
Abstain.

I have major doubts of it's feasibility, but, on the other hand, it would be totally freaking awesome!

The question is this: are the benifits of bicameralism worth adding extra offices? Two chambers, or not two chambers, that is the question!

Bicameralism doesn't add offices. It reduces them by nearly 15.

That's a bit misleading, to be slightly pedantic--yes, your plan does reduce offices, overall, but it would reduce more without the bicameralism part. Of course, you could easily say that the added dynamic of two chambers would make it worth it, but still, it's technically incorrect to say that "bicameralism doesn't add offices" when that's literally what it is: adding offices (not your plan overall, but bicameralism specifically).

Not trying to bash you or anything--I'm just a bit of a stickler for factual accuracy in debates such as these. Again, I'm not opposed to bicameralism, just skeptical. But I want to believe.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 29, 2015, 09:18:38 am
If this convention exists merely to consolidate regions and do nothing else, it will be a failure. Adding nothing new to the game and putting band aids on the government will not fix things. It'll only hasten the games decline and put it in a permanent malaise.

Bicameralism' main point is the change the dynamic of the game so people will be interested in playing again! This game is in awful shape. Interest is at all time lows and we still have some people in this convention afraid to do something borderline radical.

I ask you, Leinad, what is your vision for the game? Do you think merely consolidating regions and tweaking some other aspects of the cabinet will fix our problems? Add any new dynamics to the game? I'm not trying to be a dick either. I'm genuinely curious.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 29, 2015, 09:21:21 am
Abstain.

I have major doubts of it's feasibility, but, on the other hand, it would be totally freaking awesome!

The question is this: are the benifits of bicameralism worth adding extra offices? Two chambers, or not two chambers, that is the question!

Bicameralism doesn't add offices. It reduces them by nearly 15.

That's a bit misleading, to be slightly pedantic--yes, your plan does reduce offices, overall, but it would reduce more without the bicameralism part. Of course, you could easily say that the added dynamic of two chambers would make it worth it, but still, it's technically incorrect to say that "bicameralism doesn't add offices" when that's literally what it is: adding offices (not your plan overall, but bicameralism specifically).

Not trying to bash you or anything--I'm just a bit of a stickler for factual accuracy in debates such as these. Again, I'm not opposed to bicameralism, just skeptical. But I want to believe.

No, it is not misleading - it is factually accurate and nominally sound. This would be like saying that a budget proposal with spending cuts and tax increases that ultimately cuts spending overall doesn't really cut spending because more cuts could be made/cuts could be made without tax increases. Doesn't make sense there; doesn't make sense here.

When we are finished with cabinet consolidation, regional legislative restrictions and shrinking the Senate, we're looking at cutting the # of offices in this game by close to 25%. That, combined with a new gameplay format, should be sufficient for maintaining long-term competitiveness, activity and officeholding stability.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: bore on October 29, 2015, 09:31:24 am
1 Unicameralism

If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of a class of Senators dedicated to representing the people of the nation in Nyman.

If bicameralism fails, I am going to push for the preservation of atlasia as a country that doesn't randomly torture kittens.

That sounds wonderfull. However, the anti-Kitten brigade has not elected any Regional Senators as of yet. Such cannot be said of the secessionists, who have elected a Regional Senator dedicated to the cause of seperatism. While he is perfectly free to represent the sectional interests of his region in such capacity, it is contrary the interests of the nation and therefore the great people of this land must be representated or we are no longer a Federal Republic.

There is functionally no difference between at large senators and regional senators in terms of who they represent and this is pretty obvious, honestly. At large senators represent the 20% of people who voted for them and share their views and no one else. There is pretty much no correlation between how a senator is elected and what they see their role as, apart from regional senators being more active and having a less dull election method.

These abstract ideas of how things are in principle, like with the crazy "governors should open constitutional amendment" movement are a large part of the problem with the game. People become so wrapped up in the idea of federalism and the separation of powers that they are blind to what works and what doesn't. And all the evidence shows that senators elected by the people at large are no more or less likely to represent people against regional interests.



Also I'd like to echo delegate oakvale's words about the cabinet. If we go through with bicameralism we need to really take a chainsaw to the cabinet to get the necessary reduction in numbers.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 29, 2015, 09:41:41 am
We could always have the cabinet being made up of people who have been elected to the Senate/House - in order to keep the numbers down and to make sure that elected officials fill these roles.

The Senate would have to go up to 6 or down to three since we have three regions.
It depends on how the elections are run - you could have three regional seats for both and two at-large seats. (I can't remember if we've agreed something on this).


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 29, 2015, 02:15:35 pm
We could always have the cabinet being made up of people who have been elected to the Senate/House - in order to keep the numbers down and to make sure that elected officials fill these roles.

The Senate would have to go up to 6 or down to three since we have three regions.
It depends on how the elections are run - you could have three regional seats for both and two at-large seats. (I can't remember if we've agreed something on this).

In essence a semi presidential system minus a prime minister. Unless we make the Speaker of the House such.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 29, 2015, 02:21:50 pm
6 member senate all elected at large and either a 9 or 11 person house elected by the regions. It's very simple. It gives regions a direct way to elect their representatives and let's the senate represent the entire nation sort of like it's done now.

It's that simple. Let's not overthink this.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 29, 2015, 02:38:05 pm
6 member senate all elected at large and either a 9 or 11 person house elected by the regions. It's very simple. It gives regions a direct way to elect their representatives and let's the senate represent the entire nation sort of like it's done now.

It's that simple. Let's not overthink this.

I can work with that.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 29, 2015, 02:42:41 pm
6 member senate all elected at large and either a 9 or 11 person house elected by the regions. It's very simple. It gives regions a direct way to elect their representatives and let's the senate represent the entire nation sort of like it's done now.

It's that simple. Let's not overthink this.

     What if we use the Regional Legislatures to staff the lower house, similar to SWE's proposal? It would be a quick way to cut down on offices and it would make regional elections way more important.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 04:14:15 pm
6 member senate all elected at large and either a 9 or 11 person house elected by the regions. It's very simple. It gives regions a direct way to elect their representatives and let's the senate represent the entire nation sort of like it's done now.

It's that simple. Let's not overthink this.

That is the opposite structure of your 2013 plan though, with an all Regional Senate and "A People's House". Also it isn't correct to say the Senate represents the whole nation right now since it is bifurcated between representatives of the Regions and representatives of the People.

Also with that arrangement, what is the purpose of having six as the magic number for the Senate anymore if the Senators aren't tied to Regions?

I prefer the 2013 plan in this regard, I always have. I like the concept of a People's House to represent the nation as a whole.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 29, 2015, 04:23:12 pm
There is functionally no difference between at large senators and regional senators in terms of who they represent and this is pretty obvious, honestly. At large senators represent the 20% of people who voted for them and share their views and no one else. There is pretty much no correlation between how a senator is elected and what they see their role as, apart from regional senators being more active and having a less dull election method.

These abstract ideas of how things are in principle, like with the crazy "governors should open constitutional amendment" movement are a large part of the problem with the game. People become so wrapped up in the idea of federalism and the separation of powers that they are blind to what works and what doesn't. And all the evidence shows that senators elected by the people at large are no more or less likely to represent people against regional interests.

But that 20% of the people is spread across the entire nation and therefore it is unavoidable for them to have a national outlook on things as opposed to a regional one obviously.

It was not a crazy idea. If people are to give a damn about regional elections, they have to have some important tasks or otherwise they are indeed a useless layer of gov't as ILV stated. Perhaps, this won't the right area to give them responsibility, but at the time, with the exception of you, no one even consider the idea of reassessing the relationship between the two levels of gov't and I damn sure wasn't going to sign off on yet another shifting of responsibility from regional to federal without some counter shift in another area.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: ilikeverin on October 29, 2015, 08:46:01 pm
It's the uncertainty about what form the bicameralism would take that makes me hesitate.  Under the proper circumstances, maybe having a second chamber elected by the regions would give them something to do.  But there's a lot of "what ifs" between that system and the current one that just checking off "bicameralism" doesn't ensure.  I think there are lots of forms of bicameralism that would be an even worse trainwreck than what we have now.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 29, 2015, 09:55:42 pm
There is functionally no difference between at large senators and regional senators in terms of who they represent and this is pretty obvious, honestly. At large senators represent the 20% of people who voted for them and share their views and no one else. There is pretty much no correlation between how a senator is elected and what they see their role as, apart from regional senators being more active and having a less dull election method.

These abstract ideas of how things are in principle, like with the crazy "governors should open constitutional amendment" movement are a large part of the problem with the game. People become so wrapped up in the idea of federalism and the separation of powers that they are blind to what works and what doesn't. And all the evidence shows that senators elected by the people at large are no more or less likely to represent people against regional interests.

But that 20% of the people is spread across the entire nation and therefore it is unavoidable for them to have a national outlook on things as opposed to a regional one obviously.

It was not a crazy idea. If people are to give a damn about regional elections, they have to have some important tasks or otherwise they are indeed a useless layer of gov't as ILV stated. Perhaps, this won't the right area to give them responsibility, but at the time, with the exception of you, no one even consider the idea of reassessing the relationship between the two levels of gov't and I damn sure wasn't going to sign off on yet another shifting of responsibility from regional to federal without some counter shift in another area.

     One of the major concerns I have seen with Labor (and the JCP too to a lesser extent) is that Labor has tended to not see a role for the regions. TNF saw no issue with bossing regions around and many amendments came out of the left sought to diminish the role of the regions.

     We may have been overzealous in our response, but considering that our opponents blithely dismissed an entire dimension of the game that was critical to integrating new blood, it's not hard to see why there was so much pushback. Yankee is right that it may not have been the correct position to hold on that issue, but I would maintain that the greater good of Atlasia was served by the right-wing reaction to the erosion of the regions.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate.
Post by: bore on October 30, 2015, 08:57:17 am
There is functionally no difference between at large senators and regional senators in terms of who they represent and this is pretty obvious, honestly. At large senators represent the 20% of people who voted for them and share their views and no one else. There is pretty much no correlation between how a senator is elected and what they see their role as, apart from regional senators being more active and having a less dull election method.

These abstract ideas of how things are in principle, like with the crazy "governors should open constitutional amendment" movement are a large part of the problem with the game. People become so wrapped up in the idea of federalism and the separation of powers that they are blind to what works and what doesn't. And all the evidence shows that senators elected by the people at large are no more or less likely to represent people against regional interests.

But that 20% of the people is spread across the entire nation and therefore it is unavoidable for them to have a national outlook on things as opposed to a regional one obviously.

Maybe in principle, but there is no evidence of that ever, ever, happening. People, whatever the type of election, vote for the candidate that is closest to their politics or that they personally like the most. Federalists vote for federalists in regional elections as well as national ones and regionalists vote for regionalists in national elections as well as regional ones.
Quote
It was not a crazy idea. If people are to give a damn about regional elections, they have to have some important tasks or otherwise they are indeed a useless layer of gov't as ILV stated. Perhaps, this won't the right area to give them responsibility, but at the time, with the exception of you, no one even consider the idea of reassessing the relationship between the two levels of gov't and I damn sure wasn't going to sign off on yet another shifting of responsibility from regional to federal without some counter shift in another area.

I was talking about who opened the voting booths not how amendments were ratified. And given governors repeatedly failed to open and close booths with no measurable impact on peoples votes in regional elections defending that became kind of crazy towards the end.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 30, 2015, 09:32:23 am
Sorry Yankee, you were right. I didn't mean to mix up my plan. Although I'm fine with either as long as we don't do something silly like 5 regional senators and 1 at large. That's just stupid.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 30, 2015, 01:35:37 pm
I support the existence of regions. When I was "tracking" the senate with Cris, there was a big difference in term of level of activity between at-large senators and regional senators. Regional senators were averagely much more active.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Clyde1998 on October 30, 2015, 01:49:35 pm
6 member senate all elected at large and either a 9 or 11 person house elected by the regions. It's very simple. It gives regions a direct way to elect their representatives and let's the senate represent the entire nation sort of like it's done now.

It's that simple. Let's not overthink this.
I'd think the Senate would have to have an odd number of people in it - five or seven - so we don't have a tie in the Senate. That's my only issue with that.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 30, 2015, 03:15:49 pm
I support the existence of regions. When I was "tracking" the senate with Cris, there was a big difference in term of level of activity between at-large senators and regional senators. Regional senators were averagely much more active.

     I can see why that would happen. Regional Senators tend to be more vulnerable to changes in demographics. Some at-large Senators are on the bubble and some aren't. A Laborite or Federalist designated as the prime target for election at-large is pretty safe no matter what happens.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on October 30, 2015, 03:25:55 pm
x Bicameralism.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 30, 2015, 04:37:30 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 30, 2015, 04:43:27 pm
Bicameralism won.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 30, 2015, 06:04:44 pm
I am interested in getting a concrete idea on what this will look like - that was my main concern with voting for bicameralism.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 30, 2015, 06:29:39 pm
Duke and I of course will be serving up the best bicameralism amendments very shortly.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 30, 2015, 06:50:55 pm
Wonderful news! It passed!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Leinad on October 30, 2015, 08:06:12 pm
I ask you, Leinad, what is your vision for the game? Do you think merely consolidating regions and tweaking some other aspects of the cabinet will fix our problems? Add any new dynamics to the game? I'm not trying to be a dick either. I'm genuinely curious.

No, it's okay. To clarify, I'm not really against bicameralism, per se--as I explained, I'm torn on it. If we had more activity I'd certainly be for it. Remember, I voted "abstain," not against. As far as my overall vision, I do think we need to add some sort of dynamic to the game. Not sure exactly what--whether that's diplomacy with another nation, another chamber, or something else. But what I am sure of is that we need to cut down on the number of offices, and I'm skeptical whether we can sustain two federal houses and three regions--but I'd love to be proven wrong!

No, it is not misleading - it is factually accurate and nominally sound. This would be like saying that a budget proposal with spending cuts and tax increases that ultimately cuts spending overall doesn't really cut spending because more cuts could be made/cuts could be made without tax increases. Doesn't make sense there; doesn't make sense here.

Maybe you misunderstood me. Again, I'm not talking about the plan overall, but bicameralism in a vacuum.

To go with your budget analogy, it's more like saying that spending money to buy everyone free pizza doesn't cost any money because the budget overall saves money.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 31, 2015, 12:15:44 am
There is functionally no difference between at large senators and regional senators in terms of who they represent and this is pretty obvious, honestly. At large senators represent the 20% of people who voted for them and share their views and no one else. There is pretty much no correlation between how a senator is elected and what they see their role as, apart from regional senators being more active and having a less dull election method.

These abstract ideas of how things are in principle, like with the crazy "governors should open constitutional amendment" movement are a large part of the problem with the game. People become so wrapped up in the idea of federalism and the separation of powers that they are blind to what works and what doesn't. And all the evidence shows that senators elected by the people at large are no more or less likely to represent people against regional interests.

But that 20% of the people is spread across the entire nation and therefore it is unavoidable for them to have a national outlook on things as opposed to a regional one obviously.

Maybe in principle, but there is no evidence of that ever, ever, happening. People, whatever the type of election, vote for the candidate that is closest to their politics or that they personally like the most. Federalists vote for federalists in regional elections as well as national ones and regionalists vote for regionalists in national elections as well as regional ones.

Actually that is not entirely true. For instance PiT is far more in supportive of secession than I am. The Northeast elected a secessionist Regional Senator.

Quote
It was not a crazy idea. If people are to give a damn about regional elections, they have to have some important tasks or otherwise they are indeed a useless layer of gov't as ILV stated. Perhaps, this won't the right area to give them responsibility, but at the time, with the exception of you, no one even consider the idea of reassessing the relationship between the two levels of gov't and I damn sure wasn't going to sign off on yet another shifting of responsibility from regional to federal without some counter shift in another area.

I was talking about who opened the voting booths not how amendments were ratified. And given governors repeatedly failed to open and close booths with no measurable impact on peoples votes in regional elections defending that became kind of crazy towards the end.

No, the responsibility for administering them is just that, a responsibility. In terms of regional power though, since you brought it up, the right to decline to consider an amendment is also power that was being threatened with usurpation with such a change in administration.

In those same cases, there also a general disinterest across the board in the competence of the official though.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 31, 2015, 12:24:34 am
I know I am just one person, but I had a completely different mindset when I was Mideast senator than when I was At-Large senator. As at-large, I became more partisan as the voting block that put me into office was center-right voters. As Mideast senator, my constituency was every voter in my region, so that is who I would go to gain feedback on legislation - it also came up a couple times on regional specific issues, such as a stimulus package.

At least, that is how it is supposed to be done, I think.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on October 31, 2015, 01:00:58 am
I operated the same way. I aimed to serve all citizens of the region.


There is an inverse correlation here. Between regional focus and partisanship. This exists in real-life too, though it is made worse by gerrymandering. The Senate is more pragmatic and also more state-centric (be it subsidies for farming or whatever their state's industry is). The House is more partisan, which in and of itself is representative of the people of the real life country, who are deeply divided. Local interests matter, but the partisanship plays by far a bigger role.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 31, 2015, 02:53:59 am
I offer the following amendment (in quotes). Yes, it's big - don't freak out over it.

Notable items:

  • Use of hours where applicable, instead of days; we need to get in a habit of doing this so that we don't have any future court cases over what constitutes a "day" when counting various criteria
  • 6 Senators, all elected by the regions; 4-month terms; staggered
  • 11 House members, elected at large; 2-month terms
  • Simplified language for election booth times; removed "Daylight"/"Standard" conundrum
  • Eliminated other various elements of over-eloquence
  • Built on the idea that we'll abolish VP to free up offices; President breaks tie in Senate and Speaker breaks tie in House; yes, we already have dilution of separation of powers because the VP is part of the executive branch and he/she breaks ties in Senate
  • Provisions of Proportional Representation Act Fix of 2014 are included to ensure that House vacancy procedures are codified, but eliminated the "35-day window"; if we're giving the Senate to the Regions and allowing them to appoint however/whenever, then it's only fair that we give the House to the Parties and allow them to appoint regardless of time left (except in cases where members aren't in a major party, in which case we'll have a special election); since terms are two months and there will likely we higher rates of vacancies due to more members in the House than currently in the Senate, having an appointment-exclusive system in major party representation cases makes more sense and prevents election fatigue
  • Probably some other things that I've forgotten because they're minute

Quote
Section 1: The Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of six Senators, elected by the Regions, each with a term of four months.
2. No Person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, whose account is not at least 1440 hours old, and who is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall have the power to break ties on Senate votes in which the outcome is equally divided.
4. The Senate shall choose their other officers, including a President pro tempore, who shall act as the President of the Senate.

Section 2: The House
1. The House shall be composed of eleven Representatives, elected at-large by a form of proportional representation, each with a term of two months.
2. No person shall be a Representative who has not attained 100 or more posts, whose account is not at least 720 hours old, and who is not a registered voter in Atlasia.
3. The House shall choose their officers, including a Speaker of the House, who shall preside over the affairs of the House.
4. The Speaker of the House shall have the power to break ties on House votes in which the outcome is equally divided.

Section 3: Elections to the Senate
1. The Senate shall be divided into two classes of three Senators. Class A shall be elected in February, June and October, and shall consist of one Senator from each Region; and Class B shall be elected in April, August and December, and shall consist of one Senator from each Region.
2. Regular elections to the Senate from January through November shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the fourth Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, except in the month of December. Regular elections to the Senate in the month of December shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the third Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
3. Any vacancy occurring in a Senate seat shall be filled according to the laws of the respective region. If a region does not have any law for filling the vacancy, then the Governor of that Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term.
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the first Friday in the month after their election. Those elected in special elections or who are appointed by the Regions to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.

Section 4: Elections to the House
1. The House shall consist of one class. The House shall be elected in February, April, June, August, October, and December.
2. Regular elections to the House from January through November shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the fourth Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, except in the month of December. Regular elections to the House in the month of December shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the third Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in a House seat before the end of the term and the concerned ex-Representative is a member of a major party at the time the vacancy arises, the same party shall be responsible for filling the vacancy by whatever means they deem fit and the party's leader shall inform the House of its decision. If a vacancy shall occur in a House seat before the end of the term and the concerned ex-Representative is not a member of a major party at the time the vacancy arises, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term; Special elections to the House shall begin within ten days of the vacancy occurring and shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on a Friday and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 31, 2015, 03:47:12 am
Delegates are 24 hours to object.

Well, you are assuming the VP office will be abolished. But it's not a sure thing.

We can pass your amendment, but it might be changed soon if the VP office will NOT be abolished (I think there will be a principle vote on it soon).


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 31, 2015, 09:33:04 am
A couple questions:
- How would you recommend changing this if the VP position isn't abolished?
- Why did you settle on 11 representatives and not a lower number, which would appease those concerned that we have too many positions?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on October 31, 2015, 10:24:09 am
Reduce the number of seats in the House. Make it like seven or even six.

Suggestion:
The Vice President will be picked by the Senate and the House, simple majority required for election.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 10:36:46 am
There are some good things in this plan.
But I cannot support it: I don't like the idea of the president having the power of breaking the tie. The president is a member of the executive power, not the legislative power.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on October 31, 2015, 10:39:40 am
There are some good things in this plan.
But I cannot support it: I don't like the idea of the president having the power of breaking the tie. The president is a member of the executive power, not the legislative power.
Keep the VP, the one who will break the tie.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 10:42:49 am
There are some good things in this plan.
But I cannot support it: I don't like the idea of the president having the power of breaking the tie. The president is a member of the executive power, not the legislative power.
Keep the VP, the one who will break the tie.
Yes, I agree.


So I oppose this amendment because I don't like the idea of the president of breaking the tie.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 31, 2015, 10:47:16 am
There are some good things in this plan.
But I cannot support it: I don't like the idea of the president having the power of breaking the tie. The president is a member of the executive power, not the legislative power.
Keep the VP, the one who will break the tie.
Yes, I agree.


So I oppose this amendment because I don't like the idea of the president of breaking the tie.
What about making the Vice President a senator and then lowering the amount of members in the House? I find that acceptable, personally.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 10:48:53 am
There are some good things in this plan.
But I cannot support it: I don't like the idea of the president having the power of breaking the tie. The president is a member of the executive power, not the legislative power.
Keep the VP, the one who will break the tie.
Yes, I agree.


So I oppose this amendment because I don't like the idea of the president of breaking the tie.
What about making the Vice President a senator and then lowering the amount of members in the House? I find that acceptable, personally.
Yes me too!
7 senators (with 1 being the VP) for example.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 31, 2015, 10:59:10 am
I'm going to object since this is a very important Admendment.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (PRINCIPLE VOTE)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 31, 2015, 11:06:46 am
I like the Griffin's amendment.
I think the parts about the Senate, the House and the timing of elections are perfect.

But I have a few suggestions: I'd suggest to add that we are electing Senators/Representatives with STV. and also I'd add an At-Large Senator. At-Large elections for 1 seat are beautiful.

I'll support Griffin's amendment.
But at the same time if the principle vote on the VP position (that will be hold in another thread) will provide to keep the VP position, I'll propose an amendment to the current text letting the Vice President to break the tie.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 31, 2015, 11:10:06 am
A 48-hours vote on Griffin's amendment is now open. Please vote.

Quote
Section 1: The Senate
1. The Senate shall be composed of six Senators, elected by the Regions, each with a term of four months.
2. No Person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, whose account is not at least 1440 hours old, and who is not a registered voter in the Region that they represent.
3. The President of the Republic of Atlasia shall have the power to break ties on Senate votes in which the outcome is equally divided.
4. The Senate shall choose their other officers, including a President pro tempore, who shall act as the President of the Senate.

Section 2: The House
1. The House shall be composed of eleven Representatives, elected at-large by a form of proportional representation, each with a term of two months.
2. No person shall be a Representative who has not attained 100 or more posts, whose account is not at least 720 hours old, and who is not a registered voter in Atlasia.
3. The House shall choose their officers, including a Speaker of the House, who shall preside over the affairs of the House.
4. The Speaker of the House shall have the power to break ties on House votes in which the outcome is equally divided.

Section 3: Elections to the Senate
1. The Senate shall be divided into two classes of three Senators. Class A shall be elected in February, June and October, and shall consist of one Senator from each Region; and Class B shall be elected in April, August and December, and shall consist of one Senator from each Region.
2. Regular elections to the Senate from January through November shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the fourth Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, except in the month of December. Regular elections to the Senate in the month of December shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the third Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
3. Any vacancy occurring in a Senate seat shall be filled according to the laws of the respective region. If a region does not have any law for filling the vacancy, then the Governor of that Region shall appoint a person to fill the remainder of that term.
4. The Senate shall have necessary power to determine a procedure for declaration of candidacy for such elections. All elections to the Senate shall be by public post.
5. Those elected in ordinary elections to the Senate shall take office at noon Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the first Friday in the month after their election. Those elected in special elections or who are appointed by the Regions to the Senate shall take office as soon as the result of their election has been formally declared.

Section 4: Elections to the House
1. The House shall consist of one class. The House shall be elected in February, April, June, August, October, and December.
2. Regular elections to the House from January through November shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the fourth Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, except in the month of December. Regular elections to the House in the month of December shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on the third Friday of the month and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.
3. If a vacancy shall occur in a House seat before the end of the term and the concerned ex-Representative is a member of a major party at the time the vacancy arises, the same party shall be responsible for filling the vacancy by whatever means they deem fit and the party's leader shall inform the House of its decision. If a vacancy shall occur in a House seat before the end of the term and the concerned ex-Representative is not a member of a major party at the time the vacancy arises, then a special election shall be called to fill the remainder of the vacated term; Special elections to the House shall begin within ten days of the vacancy occurring and shall begin between midnight Eastern Time (as observed in the nation's capital) on a Friday and noon of the same day, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 31, 2015, 11:15:02 am
I realize not everyone was around when all of the details when Duke's and my consolidation/bicameralism plans were carved out two years ago, but I promise that for every question that will be asked wiith regards to specifics, there is a pre-existing answer. In this particular case:

The specific numbers for both the House and the Senate are carefully considered and were developed long ago. We cannot go higher in terms of numbers for the House because that would create too many offices. We cannot go lower because there would be no point in having two different chambers with two different leaders, two different sets of rules and two sets of hurdles for legislation to jump through that have roughly the same number of members (a "House" is supposed to be considerably larger than a Senate, and needs to be considerably larger than the current at-large elections are in order for PR-STV or an equivalent to be truly competitive and interesting).

Furthermore, rounding down to an even number (8 or 10) would further necessitate the need for a tie-breaking member in this chamber; I had just assumed that giving the Speaker "two votes" in the case of a tie would be the most controversial element of all of this but perhaps I'm mistaken.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 11:18:58 am
Nay.

But I like Cris' idea as well. The president breaking the tie is a big non-starter for me, so I can't support this plan overall. That's a shame because I like most of the other ideas.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: tmthforu94 on October 31, 2015, 11:38:01 am
I don't feel comfortable with us voting so quickly after an amendment that would fundamentally transform the game has been introduced and is being discussed.

Abstain for now, though I may edit my vote after giving it more consideration.

Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on October 31, 2015, 11:51:42 am
AYE

It's important to note that this can very easily be amended after the principle vote is held without rejecting this amendment outright. This particular vote is not a principle vote.

The Vice Presidency is a useless relic of an office that already muddies the separation of powers by definition, only serves to allow blocs to get elected more easily and adds yet another position to the game that has to be filled and that prevents someone from holding an office that actually makes a difference; with bicameralism being the new government form, we must strive to reduce office counts elsewhere by as much as possible in order for it to work. There literally isn't a more useless office in this game currently than Vice President.

The rest of this has either already been approved via principle votes (bicameralism), has been debated ad nauseum in terms of specifics (6 in the Senate, 11 in the House), or is so minute that it's not something to get upset over them.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 31, 2015, 11:52:57 am
My original plan had the VP as the tiebreaker. Additionally, we want an odd house and even senate so the vp can be a tiebreaker for the senate. If it were an odd number, then no tie break would be necessary. That's the way id like to see it structured at least.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on October 31, 2015, 12:13:25 pm
AYE, for this reason:

It's important to note that this can very easily be amended after the principle vote is held without rejecting this amendment outright. This particular vote is not a principle vote.

This amendment is by no means perfect, but its a good start. My main concern at this point is the size of the House: while I agree that it should be substantially larger than the Senate, I would prefer nine seats in the lower chamber as opposed to 11. Likewise, I oppose Cris' suggestion to replace the VP with a single At-Large Senator. This would have been a good idea had we gone with a unicameral legislature, but I don't think its a good fit for bicameralism. If we must have a tie-breaking officer, I'd prefer it to be a VP who can coordinate the two houses as opposed to yet another member of the Senate.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Senator Cris on October 31, 2015, 12:15:09 pm
Aye

I strongly encourage my fellow delegates to support this amendment. It's not perfect, but it's a good starting point. We can change it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 12:15:49 pm
After some thought, changing my vote to Aye. I will support Cris or Truman's idea later.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 31, 2015, 12:24:05 pm
Aye

We can edit parts of it later for the VP duties/whether it should exist at all.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on October 31, 2015, 12:44:44 pm
Aye.

I am undecided on the role of (if any) of the VP, but this is by and large an excellent template.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: VPH on October 31, 2015, 01:48:18 pm
aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on October 31, 2015, 03:09:04 pm
     Aye. I look forward to further amendments being proposed.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 03:25:32 pm
Well, considering bicameralism has been approved, in case the VP remains and isn't abolished:

I would like to lower the number of the house seats. I still believe the senate should be constituted of 6 senators (+VP being the tie breaker), but I do believe that 11 is a too big numbers. Why not lowering this number to 7? I do believe as well they should be elected at large, the senate representing the regions and the house of representatives representing Atlasia at large.

In case the VP remains, I would like to propose the idea of a new role for the VP:
Why not making him the coordinator between the 2 chambers. For example, if the House passes a piece of legislation, that should be him who should administer this piece of legislation in the senate. If anyone has an another idea it would be welcome. But yes, considering now that will be bicameralism, I think it might be possible to give the VP a role without making him basically a senator.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: MadmanMotley on October 31, 2015, 03:40:51 pm
Aye.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on October 31, 2015, 05:48:35 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on October 31, 2015, 06:39:45 pm
NO I do not favor a 7 person house. The lowest I'll go is 9, but 11 is preferable. We need to differentiate some between the two chambers at the very least.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on October 31, 2015, 06:43:19 pm
Well,
9 representatives, this is fine for me. It would only increase the number of federal representatives by 5 in the end. Considering the number of regions will be reduced, I guess it is workable.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Classic Conservative on October 31, 2015, 07:20:44 pm
AYE


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on October 31, 2015, 08:41:54 pm
Aye,

It's a start but Duke makes an intelligent point.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 01, 2015, 01:31:37 pm
Abstain

I feel that the house should be elected by the regions and the Senate at-large, the House should be smaller (otherwise we're still going to have the issue over not having enough people to fill each position) and the Senate should have an odd number of Senators. I also don't support having two classes of Senator if they're all going to be elected through one type of the election (regional/at-large).


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: bore on November 01, 2015, 04:21:38 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 01, 2015, 04:54:02 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Clark Kent on November 01, 2015, 07:52:20 pm
NAY

I don't think we have enough people for an 11-member House, and if they're elected at-large anyways, it doesn't seem to serve a separate purpose from the Senate.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 01:27:50 am
oh  the HELL YESSS!!!! >:D

by which I mean Aye by the way!!! ;)



I love every inch of this Amendment, except the absence of the VP. :P The House and Senate are perfect, as are the election methods. The increassed frequency of House elections ensures they are a truly a People's House and that they serve the will of the people. The Senate gets the PPT back, so that the House can have a Speaker.

Since the principle vote is going overwhelmingly in favor of keeping the VP, that will hopefully be amended back in. Here is my suggestion, as I mentioned in the other thread, make the Vice President serve as "President/Presiding Officer of the Congress, with the responsbility of ensuring that both chambers coordinate. So if you have emergency bills for instance, he could preside over it for both houses. He would ensure that both houses passed legislation before it is presented to the President and that both House's leadership are active, with the ability to fill in until a new PPT or Speaker is elected. He would also split ties in both houses (there could be a vacancy leading to a tie in the House). The VP would also serve as the PResident's laison to the legislative branch and therefore the VP would always have to be active and engaged.

Take the House down to 9 from eleven and that way retaining the VP is compensated for office wise.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 01:30:31 am
In case the VP remains, I would like to propose the idea of a new role for the VP:
Why not making him the coordinator between the 2 chambers. For example, if the House passes a piece of legislation, that should be him who should administer this piece of legislation in the senate. If anyone has an another idea it would be welcome. But yes, considering now that will be bicameralism, I think it might be possible to give the VP a role without making him basically a senator.

Definitely!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 02, 2015, 01:34:55 am
I feel that the house should be elected by the regions and the Senate at-large

Under the current parameters, reversing the two would create a more difficult and simultaneously less competitive outcome.

For starters, we'd have to do reapportionment every 2 or 4 months in order to allocate House districts to each region under such a plan. Then, we have to determine who/how they're drawn. Then, presumably, we'd have to ensure that the districts are drawn in such a way that there are roughly the same number of active people in each district in order to ensure candidates for office will actually exist. Otherwise, you would actually end up with a lot of empty seats. Now, do you codify such a requirement into law, and if so, how specifically? What language would be used to determine who constitutes a likely "active" person and who does not?

Then, there is the problem with having a smaller Senate elected at-large all at once. Again, under the current parameters, we would only have one additional Senator being elected at-large in your idea than what is currently the case. The current at-large Senate system is widely considered (and rightfully so) to be the most predictable set of elections in the game. Unless somebody really screws up, then it's going to be 2 Senators from the biggest left-wing party, 2 Senators from the biggest right-wing party, and 1 Senator from another party or unaffiliated group (often left-leaning). That was a big motivation behind moving away from the at-large system for Senate elections with the ERA awhile back. There would be a nominal difference at most with making 6 Senators elected via at-large representation versus 5.

the House should be smaller (otherwise we're still going to have the issue over not having enough people to fill each position)

The House needs to be functionally different than the Senate in order to justify its existence, and one of the most common variables for this difference in government chambers is the size. Under the current framework (restrictions on regional government size, 11-member House, 6-member Senate, and hopefully a bit of consolidation in the cabinet), we'll be reducing the number of offices by a little more than 20%.

Because it will be at-large, it will be substantially easier to find willing candidates to fill these positions than when compared to the current regional dysfunction of too many offices and boundaries that restrict qualified candidates. Reducing the size of this chamber any more than what is specified makes it too close in scope to the Senate; I've heard people saying "7 Senators & 9 House members". What exactly is the damn point in adding an extra layer of bureaucracy if the two chambers are going to be virtually the same size? There needs to be a contrast, and it needs to be substantial.

and the Senate should have an odd number of Senators. I also don't support having two classes of Senator if they're all going to be elected through one type of the election (regional/at-large).

Well, since everybody seems to want to keep the dis-utilitarian Vice Presidency, I suppose it will have to function as the tie-breaker here. In addition, an even number is necessary to keep the regions from squawking too loudly about it not being "their chamber" or whatever.

Take the House down to 9 from eleven and that way retaining the VP is compensated for office wise.


Nope, not necessary! If literally one of the most non-useful positions in the game can be retained without any concern for the number of offices being preserved, then nobody needs to take a hypocritical approach and begin saying "we need to remove twice as many from the House for numbers' sake" to make up for it.

It's just like what I imagine would happen with the addition of new provinces; I bet if I were to introduce an amendment to remove several current U.S. states from our jurisdiction that have been historically empty - so that we don't have any "dreaded empty jurisdictions" or whatever - then I bet everybody who said we can't have any more empty territories would vote against that, too. People really need to have more consistency throughout this process. :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 01:50:20 am
Take the House down to 9 from eleven and that way retaining the VP is compensated for office wise.


Nope, not necessary! If literally one of the most non-useful positions in the game can be retained without any concern for the number of offices being preserved, then nobody needs to take a hypocritical approach and begin saying "we need to remove twice as many from the House for numbers' sake" to make up for it.

It is not double for the sake of making up for it. It is double because odd numbers occur at intervals of two, not one oh great and might mathematical genius. Go Griff yo Graph!!! :P

You are partially to blame for the VP's present state, by the way. ;) It was working fine until Labor got its fing groper nasties all over it. :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 02, 2015, 02:09:48 am
Take the House down to 9 from eleven and that way retaining the VP is compensated for office wise.


Nope, not necessary! If literally one of the most non-useful positions in the game can be retained without any concern for the number of offices being preserved, then nobody needs to take a hypocritical approach and begin saying "we need to remove twice as many from the House for numbers' sake" to make up for it.

It is not double for the sake of making up for it. It is double because odd numbers occur at intervals of two, not one oh great and might mathematical genius. Go Griff yo Graph!!! :P

You are partially to blame for the VP's present state, by the way. ;) It was working fine until Labor got its fing groper nasties all over it. :P

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if we're not worried at all about getting rid of one position with no utility whatsoever in order to free up game space, then we shouldn't be all gun-ho about getting rid of two positions under the same pretenses that will actually have intrinsic value. Since those positions will actually create value and a contrast between the two chambers in terms of electoral competition and meaning, they're worth retaining even more than the VP. Since the VP has been deemed worth keeping over more valuable offices, then there is no argument without hypocrisy to then want to ax these offices for fear of having too many offices.

People who are worried about numbers should have been willing to get rid of the least useful office currently in the game. Eleven House seats will not be difficult to fill, assuming this body doesn't reverse course and give the regions the ability to go hog-wild with office creation once again.

And there are a lot of people you can blame for how the Vice Presidency got to where it is today, but I am not one of them.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 02:49:35 am
Take the House down to 9 from eleven and that way retaining the VP is compensated for office wise.


Nope, not necessary! If literally one of the most non-useful positions in the game can be retained without any concern for the number of offices being preserved, then nobody needs to take a hypocritical approach and begin saying "we need to remove twice as many from the House for numbers' sake" to make up for it.

It is not double for the sake of making up for it. It is double because odd numbers occur at intervals of two, not one oh great and might mathematical genius. Go Griff yo Graph!!! :P

You are partially to blame for the VP's present state, by the way. ;) It was working fine until Labor got its fing groper nasties all over it. :P

That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that if we're not worried at all about getting rid of one position with no utility whatsoever in order to free up game space, then we shouldn't be all gun-ho about getting rid of two positions under the same pretenses that will actually have intrinsic value. Since those positions will actually create value and a contrast between the two chambers in terms of electoral competition and meaning, they're worth retaining even more than the VP. Since the VP has been deemed worth keeping over more valuable offices, then there is no argument without hypocrisy to then want to ax these offices for fear of having too many offices.

People who are worried about numbers should have been willing to get rid of the least useful office currently in the game. Eleven House seats will not be difficult to fill, assuming this body doesn't reverse course and give the regions the ability to go hog-wild with office creation once again.

And there are a lot of people you can blame for how the Vice Presidency got to where it is today, but I am not one of them.

Its called compromise Griffin, a concept you may be unfamiliar with. :P Plus I really don't want the best parts of your amendment gutted to something terrible.

Sure, sure! :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 02, 2015, 01:20:10 pm
The amendment passed.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 02, 2015, 01:34:42 pm
In case the VP remains, I would like to propose the idea of a new role for the VP:
Why not making him the coordinator between the 2 chambers. For example, if the House passes a piece of legislation, that should be him who should administer this piece of legislation in the senate. If anyone has an another idea it would be welcome. But yes, considering now that will be bicameralism, I think it might be possible to give the VP a role without making him basically a senator.

Definitely!

Does anyone bother reading my original proposal? That's exactly what I had in mind for the VP. A lot of people are just talking before educating themselves which is making this process less efficient.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 02, 2015, 02:12:42 pm
In case the VP remains, I would like to propose the idea of a new role for the VP:
Why not making him the coordinator between the 2 chambers. For example, if the House passes a piece of legislation, that should be him who should administer this piece of legislation in the senate. If anyone has an another idea it would be welcome. But yes, considering now that will be bicameralism, I think it might be possible to give the VP a role without making him basically a senator.

Definitely!

Does anyone bother reading my original proposal? That's exactly what I had in mind for the VP. A lot of people are just talking before educating themselves which is making this process less efficient.
I m sorry Duke but I dont find your plan.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Voting on Amendment)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 02, 2015, 06:36:42 pm
Duke I don't think you posted your original plan.


And you know the answer to that, because I helped you work out some of the kinks back in 2013. :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 03, 2015, 04:42:42 pm
Sorry, I'll post it when I get home. It's on my google docs page where I left it 2 years ago. :D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 03, 2015, 04:50:04 pm
Sorry, I'll post it when I get home. It's on my google docs page where I left it 2 years ago. :D

Haha :P

I wasn't even registered when you were elected with Marokai :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 03, 2015, 05:53:47 pm
Sorry, I'll post it when I get home. It's on my google docs page where I left it 2 years ago. :D

Haha :P

I wasn't even registered when you were elected with Marokai :P

No no, this was from my first presidential campaign in October 2013. I ran on reforming the government because I felt Atlasia needed a shot in the arm, but at the time was met with a lot of opposition to the point where I had to abandon it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 03, 2015, 07:13:00 pm
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16CprQX313EgE37ashRbVCTWxz8TayYtbvmXjeV13OD8/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my original proposal from 2013.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 05, 2015, 04:39:42 am
Good times! :)


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 05, 2015, 02:06:06 pm
https://docs.google.com/document/d/16CprQX313EgE37ashRbVCTWxz8TayYtbvmXjeV13OD8/edit?usp=sharing

Here's my original proposal from 2013.

I'm open to endorse Dukes plan in principle.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on November 06, 2015, 11:45:13 pm
I believe Duke's plan is a great starting point for debate and improvement, if any is needed.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 07, 2015, 08:51:27 am
I believe Duke's plan is a great starting point for debate and improvement, if any is needed.
^^^^


Basically, some requests:
     -I still would like to keep the name "senate" for the legislative body representing the regions.
     - 6 senate members elected by half is a good idea. Here is my proposal: during the presidential election, senators should be elected like right now. But during the Midterms, I think it should be elected by the state legislatures. This is important to give them some duties, because if not, people won't give any interest to local races, and that's a shame considering this is honestly the local offices, that represents just my best memories.
     - 11 representatives: that's too big. I will advocate for 7 members (I mean, what's the problem with having 2 chambers that have the same number of people?). 9 members wouldn't be terrible either.

     And finally, if we implement bicameralism, we really need to let people hold more than 1 offices (with exceptions etc): For example, a local assemblyman should be able to be at the same time a member of a regional assembly and a senator or representative.
     


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 08, 2015, 12:18:15 am
I believe Duke's plan is a great starting point for debate and improvement, if any is needed.
^^^^


Basically, some requests:
     -I still would like to keep the name "senate" for the legislative body representing the regions.
     - 6 senate members elected by half is a good idea. Here is my proposal: during the presidential election, senators should be elected like right now. But during the Midterms, I think it should be elected by the state legislatures. This is important to give them some duties, because if not, people won't give any interest to local races, and that's a shame considering this is honestly the local offices, that represents just my best memories.
     - 11 representatives: that's too big. I will advocate for 7 members (I mean, what's the problem with having 2 chambers that have the same number of people?). 9 members wouldn't be terrible either.

     And finally, if we implement bicameralism, we really need to let people hold more than 1 offices (with exceptions etc): For example, a local assemblyman should be able to be at the same time a member of a regional assembly and a senator or representative.
     

There is absolutely zero point in having two chambers if they're the same size...furthermore, 7 at-large elected members = the same crappy and predictable system we have for the at-large elections now. An at-large system is not competitive with a small number of offices. Also, restricting offices to such a small size in your plan will not make it necessary to have dual-officeholding in cases other than where pure functionality dictates.

Your plan creates the exact same conditions we currently have.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 08, 2015, 12:22:43 am
I love you all so much. I'll have a drink for each of you tonight


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 08, 2015, 07:35:57 am
I believe Duke's plan is a great starting point for debate and improvement, if any is needed.
^^^^


Basically, some requests:
     -I still would like to keep the name "senate" for the legislative body representing the regions.
     - 6 senate members elected by half is a good idea. Here is my proposal: during the presidential election, senators should be elected like right now. But during the Midterms, I think it should be elected by the state legislatures. This is important to give them some duties, because if not, people won't give any interest to local races, and that's a shame considering this is honestly the local offices, that represents just my best memories.
     - 11 representatives: that's too big. I will advocate for 7 members (I mean, what's the problem with having 2 chambers that have the same number of people?). 9 members wouldn't be terrible either.

     And finally, if we implement bicameralism, we really need to let people hold more than 1 offices (with exceptions etc): For example, a local assemblyman should be able to be at the same time a member of a regional assembly and a senator or representative.
     

There is absolutely zero point in having two chambers if they're the same size...furthermore, 7 at-large elected members = the same crappy and predictable system we have for the at-large elections now. An at-large system is not competitive with a small number of offices. Also, restricting offices to such a small size in your plan will not make it necessary to have dual-officeholding in cases other than where pure functionality dictates.

Your plan creates the exact same conditions we currently have.
Adam, don't forget we need to reduce the number of offices too!


I love you all so much. I'll have a drink for each of you tonight
The feeling is mutual, have a good drink :P.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 09, 2015, 12:17:52 pm
Also I'll say I oppose any attemp to make the house 7 people. I need to be at least 9 minimum to make it worthwhile. As it stands this plan does reduce offices, so the fears that it'll add too many aren't something to fret over. I won't do anything to add offices to this game that already has too many.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 09, 2015, 12:48:23 pm
     Maybe the Senate should just always be elected by the Legislatures. I think it is a good idea to make them more relevant, and the split system seems a bit overcomplicated.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 09, 2015, 01:17:02 pm
     Maybe the Senate should just always be elected by the Legislatures. I think it is a good idea to make them more relevant, and the split system seems a bit overcomplicated.

Personally, I think we should just make it so that they are given to the regions and then let the regions decide on how they want to handle it. Are you advocating for a big, heavy-handed federal approach to all of this? I'm so proud! ;)


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 09, 2015, 01:36:02 pm
     Maybe the Senate should just always be elected by the Legislatures. I think it is a good idea to make them more relevant, and the split system seems a bit overcomplicated.

Personally, I think we should just make it so that they are given to the regions and then let the regions decide on how they want to handle it. Are you advocating for a big, heavy-handed federal approach to all of this? I'm so proud! ;)

     Well I was responding to a post advocating a federal approach. :P


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 09, 2015, 04:22:51 pm
I don't know about the legislatures selecting their senator. I want more elections, all the time, because this is an elections game, and the more we have the better.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 09, 2015, 05:06:00 pm
We must never, NEVER, take away from the people their right to decide who is elected to represent them in ANY office.

Legislatures elect  Senators?

Have some around here lost their minds?

And I am in no way convinced that we need yet another legislative body to complicate things further.   


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 09, 2015, 05:20:56 pm
I don't know about the legislatures selecting their senator. I want more elections, all the time, because this is an elections game, and the more we have the better.

     The problem is too many elections causing voter fatigue. The run-up to the election is oftentimes just as interesting as the result. Besides, the House would be elected by the citizenry.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 09, 2015, 06:30:14 pm
We must never, NEVER, take away from the people their right to decide who is elected to represent them in ANY office.

Legislatures elect  Senators?

Have some around here lost their minds?

And I am in no way convinced that we need yet another legislative body to complicate things further.   

Prior to the 17th amendment the legislatures of the states elected the senate. Why shouldn't we do that.

Lincoln, the voice of the people isn't being stifled by their regional legislatures if those legislatures are electing the senators. The people's will is expressed in the legislatures decision and that same legislature can recall a rogue senator.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 09, 2015, 08:11:07 pm
I go on record as being vehemently opposed to members of Regional Legislatures electing representatives of the people.

Only the people should be electing those who will represent them in government.

ALL eligible voters in Atlasia should be allowed to participate in the election of those who govern us, not just members of Regional Legislatures.

The Seventeenth Amendment dates from 1913 by the way.  This is 2015.   


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on November 09, 2015, 08:11:35 pm
I like Griffin's point. Why don't we allow regions to decide how they'll elect their two Senators? :D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 10, 2015, 12:32:34 am
I go on record as being vehemently opposed to members of Regional Legislatures electing representatives of the people.

Only the people should be electing those who will represent them in government.

ALL eligible voters in Atlasia should be allowed to participate in the election of those who govern us, not just members of Regional Legislatures.

The Seventeenth Amendment dates from 1913 by the way.  This is 2015.   

And it's an amendment who's time has come to die. The House is the voice of the people and the Senate is the voice of the states. That how the Constitution meant it to be. Wilson and his ilk of progressives didn't want the states to have a direct voice in government and that's how the direct election of senators happened. A return to stronger states (via regional assemblies electing senators) is what Atlasia and RL America needs.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on November 10, 2015, 12:46:39 am
Letting the legislatures pick their senators just opens the door to crony politics, and deprives the people of who to they wish to represent their region in the chamber. Moreover, an election game on life support should not be cutting a competitive and engrossing set of elections if it wants to survive.

JCL, leave your bankrupt ideology in the trashbin of history. There is a reason irl America discarded the broken practice of letting state legislatures anoint their senators. It has no place irl or in this game.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 10, 2015, 02:09:26 am
Letting the legislatures pick their senators just opens the door to crony politics, and deprives the people of who to they wish to represent their region in the chamber. Moreover, an election game on life support should not be cutting a competitive and engrossing set of elections if it wants to survive.

JCL, leave your bankrupt ideology in the trashbin of history. There is a reason irl America discarded the broken practice of letting state legislatures anoint their senators. It has no place irl or in this game.

Actually, I'm trying to restore a more republican form of democratic governance. Its not a bankrupt point of view. Plus it'll make this assembly seats more important to win. Crony politics are what got us to this point and substantial changes have to be made. Some such changes (consolidation) should not be made.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 10, 2015, 02:21:23 am
I agree with Griffin, each region should get to decide how to elect their Senators.


The Senate's purpose is indeed to represent the region and therefore there is a good argument that can be made when it comes up at the region level to decide who to elect them to opt in fact for the legislatures as an option. It also does help make those elections for Regional Gov't more important. I have long pushed Regionalizing the Regional Senate elections and making it so they were held on the same ballot as Governor and state legislature for the purpose of boosting turnout and interest in those downballot seats and elections.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 10, 2015, 08:49:00 am
This proposal is identic at the new Italy reform: an House elected by the people and the Senate elected by regional governments.

It's an interesting idea, no doubts, but I prefer to keep the people electing their Senators. Or we might let regions decide how to elect their Senators, it would mean more powers to regions and I like that.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 10, 2015, 10:52:13 am
Right; I wouldn't be in favor of telling the regions they must have a legislature in order to elect Senators if we decide to do things that way.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 10, 2015, 11:51:02 am
Right; I wouldn't be in favor of telling the regions they must have a legislature in order to elect Senators if we decide to do things that way.

     That is also a good point; I have long been a fan of how legislatures were organically adopted by the regions, rather than required of them. We should be giving the regions more say and not less, or what's the point?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 10, 2015, 11:52:59 am
The democratic right of the people to choose who governs them at any level must never be discarded.

The clock of democracy can never be turned back to the old days when Senators were chosen by party cliques sitting in a legislature.

What is wrong with letting the people, all eligible voters in Atlasia, or all eligible voters in a region, decide who is to govern them?

The people's right to choose who is to govern  is the most fundamental right of free people everywhere, the right to vote.

Taking the vote away from the people is a horrible idea.  I cannot imagine anyone who genuinely loves democracy ever supporting such an archaic practice as having representatives of the people elected by a legislature clique.  


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 10, 2015, 06:55:48 pm
In 24 hours time, if there are no objections, I will call a principle vote to determine the manner in which the Senate will be elected. The options in that vote will be:

-Both Classes should be elected by the voters
-Both Classes should be chosen by the Regional legislatures
-Class I should be elected by the voters and Class II should be elected by the Regional legislatures
-Each Region should decide for itself how to elect its senators

Delegates are free to propose other ideas, which will appear on the ballot as well.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Leinad on November 11, 2015, 06:03:28 am
The democratic right of the people to choose who governs them at any level must never be discarded.

The clock of democracy can never be turned back to the old days when Senators were chosen by party cliques sitting in a legislature.

What is wrong with letting the people, all eligible voters in Atlasia, or all eligible voters in a region, decide who is to govern them?

The people's right to choose who is to govern  is the most fundamental right of free people everywhere, the right to vote.

Taking the vote away from the people is a horrible idea.  I cannot imagine anyone who genuinely loves democracy ever supporting such an archaic practice as having representatives of the people elected by a legislature clique.  

I suppose your point does hold some value, but it's no different than letting President's appoint a Cabinet instead of electing them, right? Not saying you're right or wrong, just wondering why there's no criticism from you of that.

And to one of your points, regarding party cliques, I would argue that, in real life especially, popular vote elections are generally won by whatever candidate the media-establishment complex forces down everyone's throats anyway, so I'm not sure where the difference is.

I certainly have reservations about this plan, too, but if it can A) reignite the regions and B) provide meaningful contrast between the two houses, I'm very much open to it. Overall, I like the idea of letting the regions decide. That way we can see which system is the best, by testing them both in action (or seeing all 3 regions independently decide one is better than the other, whichever one works).


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 11, 2015, 05:09:09 pm
A principle vote is not open on the question of Senatorial elections. Please rank the following options in order of your preference. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.


Proposals

Option A - Both Classes shall be elected by popular vote.
Option B - Both Classes shall be elected by the legislatures of the several Regions.
Option C - Class I shall be elected by popular vote and Class II shall be elected by the Regional legislatures.
Option D - Each Region shall decide for itself how to elect its senators.


Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Senatorial Elections

Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[   ] Option A
[   ] Option B
[   ] Option C
[   ] Option D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 11, 2015, 05:13:00 pm
Option C


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Classic Conservative on November 11, 2015, 05:36:57 pm
Option A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on November 11, 2015, 10:04:55 pm
Option A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 11, 2015, 10:38:42 pm
Option D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 11, 2015, 10:53:16 pm
Option A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: tmthforu94 on November 12, 2015, 12:18:55 am
Folks should probably do STV voting - I don't think we should "pass" a principle vote unless it receives 50%+1 of overall votes.

1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B

#regionalrights I think all regions will likely elect to have a popular vote, but this is another example of the federal government meddling into the region's business. Let them decide!!!!!!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 12, 2015, 12:35:13 am
Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[  2 ] Option A
[ 4  ] Option B
[ 3  ] Option C
[ 1  ] Option D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 12, 2015, 01:03:33 am
Option A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Leinad on November 12, 2015, 02:32:20 am
1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B

Ditto what Tmth said. While I do think a popular vote would be best, it's a good idea to let the regions decide. What could go wrong if the people of a region decide to make it based on the legislature? We already have another federal house elected via popular vote, and the legislature itself is elected via popular vote as well, so it's not like we're robbing the people of their rights or anything if we do this.

This could be a great opportunity to not only differentiate the two houses, but (much more importantly) reinvigorate the regional legislatures.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 12, 2015, 09:11:50 am
1. D
2. A
3. C
4. B


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 12, 2015, 09:57:27 am
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Senatorial Elections

Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[1] Option A
[  ] Option B
[  ] Option C
[2] Option D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 12, 2015, 12:23:04 pm
1. C
2. D
3. B
4. A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 12, 2015, 12:58:37 pm
If we are going to let the legislatures elect regional senators or let regions decide how to elect their senators (regions might be able to decide that the legislature shall elect them), we should adress this point: shall legislators select a citizen that's not a legislator or shall legislators be able to select themselves? If yes, regional legislators would be Senators at the same time and, to be honest, I don't think it's a good fit for activity purpose.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: MadmanMotley on November 12, 2015, 01:09:17 pm
1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 12, 2015, 03:03:50 pm
1. D
2. C
3. A
4. B


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 12, 2015, 05:05:22 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Senatorial Elections

Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[ 2 ] Option A
[    ] Option B
[    ] Option C
[ 1 ] Option D

I should note that, as a matter of principle, I do not support empowering the Regional legislatures to elect the Senate. If we want the federal system to be at all meaningful, however, we must give the Regions real responsibilities, and that means creating the possibility that they will make mistakes. If our continual response to vesting more powers in the Regions is, "Oh, not that, that's too important," the Regions will continue to be powerless and people will continue to not give two cents about Regional elections.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 12, 2015, 05:25:45 pm
     Thank you, Senator Truman. One of the tendencies that I have noticed for a long time is that people are often control freaks, not to demean anyone for it. I experience that too.

     This tendency is why we have tended to end up with an overly descriptive Constitution, and it is also why people often resist devolving important choices to the regions. Everyone is afraid to leave the issues they care about up in the air because they might not have control over how it is handled, even if the current means of dealing with it are not the most appropriate.

     The effect of embracing this in the long run is that people are less empowered to make important decisions and less able to affect change. Then we wonder why there is discontent concerning the game's state of affairs.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 12, 2015, 05:31:30 pm
1. Option D
2. Option A

Let the regions have more powers.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on November 12, 2015, 11:19:11 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Senatorial Elections

Question: How should the members of the Senate be elected?
[3] Option A
[  ] Option B
[2] Option C
[1] Option D


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: bore on November 13, 2015, 03:31:19 pm
Option A


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 13, 2015, 10:17:56 pm
Results of the Principle Vote on Senatorial Elections
Option A - 6
Option B - 0
Option C - 2
Option D - 10

With a majority of voting delegates in favor, Option D has been selected.


Option D - Each Region shall decide for itself how to elect its senators.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 17, 2015, 06:15:11 pm
As several delegates have raised concerns about the size of the proposed second legislative house, I am calling a principle vote to determine the number of seats in the House of Representatives. Please rank the following options according to preference; voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have votes.

Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership

[   ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[   ] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[   ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 17, 2015, 06:55:43 pm

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership
[/center]

[3] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[2] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[1] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 17, 2015, 06:59:11 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership

[ 3 ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[ 1 ] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[ 2 ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 17, 2015, 07:24:48 pm
1) 7
2)9


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: tmthforu94 on November 17, 2015, 08:41:54 pm
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: MadmanMotley on November 17, 2015, 08:58:51 pm
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Negusa Nagast 🚀 on November 17, 2015, 09:13:05 pm
1. 11
2. 9
3. 7


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 17, 2015, 11:31:29 pm
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 18, 2015, 05:16:08 am
[1] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.
[2] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on November 18, 2015, 05:37:26 am
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership

[3] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[2] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[1] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Leinad on November 18, 2015, 07:37:30 am
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7



Crazy idea I'd like my fellow delegates to hear and consider/humor for at least 4.26 seconds:

There should be a built-in mechanism to decrease the number of seats due to a lack of activity. As in, if an election has less than X number of declared candidates (the exact number would be determined when we define precisely how elections will be ran--FPTP, STV by region, STV by district, party list PR, or whatever) it will go from 11 to 9 for that election and subsequent ones (and it could be expanded if the number goes back up).

Example: every region starts out with 3 seats elected in an STV system, for a total of 12. If, say, 6 or more people run, it goes to 4 seats, and if, say, less than 4 people run, it goes to 2. Or if it's at-large, or population-adjusted districts, it could start out at 9, and if less than, say, 10 people run it goes to 7, and if more than 13 people run it goes to 11. Obviously the numbers will be changed if we actually do this.

Does anyone else agree with that idea? Or am I just talking nonsense?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Clark Kent on November 18, 2015, 01:08:18 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership

[1] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[2] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[3] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: bore on November 18, 2015, 01:20:52 pm
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 18, 2015, 03:23:13 pm
1. 9
2. 11
3. 7



Crazy idea I'd like my fellow delegates to hear and consider/humor for at least 4.26 seconds:

There should be a built-in mechanism to decrease the number of seats due to a lack of activity. As in, if an election has less than X number of declared candidates (the exact number would be determined when we define precisely how elections will be ran--FPTP, STV by region, STV by district, party list PR, or whatever) it will go from 11 to 9 for that election and subsequent ones (and it could be expanded if the number goes back up).

Example: every region starts out with 3 seats elected in an STV system, for a total of 12. If, say, 6 or more people run, it goes to 4 seats, and if, say, less than 4 people run, it goes to 2. Or if it's at-large, or population-adjusted districts, it could start out at 9, and if less than, say, 10 people run it goes to 7, and if more than 13 people run it goes to 11. Obviously the numbers will be changed if we actually do this.

Does anyone else agree with that idea? Or am I just talking nonsense?

     We tried something like that briefly in the South, but it ended up being irrelevant. I'd be interested to see it tried on a broader scale.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 18, 2015, 06:05:47 pm
Crazy idea I'd like my fellow delegates to hear and consider/humor for at least 4.26 seconds:

There should be a built-in mechanism to decrease the number of seats due to a lack of activity. As in, if an election has less than X number of declared candidates (the exact number would be determined when we define precisely how elections will be ran--FPTP, STV by region, STV by district, party list PR, or whatever) it will go from 11 to 9 for that election and subsequent ones (and it could be expanded if the number goes back up).

Example: every region starts out with 3 seats elected in an STV system, for a total of 12. If, say, 6 or more people run, it goes to 4 seats, and if, say, less than 4 people run, it goes to 2. Or if it's at-large, or population-adjusted districts, it could start out at 9, and if less than, say, 10 people run it goes to 7, and if more than 13 people run it goes to 11. Obviously the numbers will be changed if we actually do this.

Does anyone else agree with that idea? Or am I just talking nonsense?
This is an interesting idea: I believe the Northeast adopted a similar proposal in regards to Assembly elections earlier this year. Perhaps the final text could look something like this:

Quote
The House of Representatives shall be composed of a number of Representatives elected by the population at-large, such that the total number of seats shall be equal to 3/4 the total number of declared candidates in the most recent election; but in no case shall the number of Representatives be fewer than [whatever number we decide on here].


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 18, 2015, 10:24:40 pm
1.   9
2.   7
3.  11


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 19, 2015, 09:01:37 am
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on House Membership

[   ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 7 Members.
[   ] The House of Representative shall consist of 9 Members.
[   ] The House of Representatives shall consist of 11 Members.
[X] Based on the number of candidates standing.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 19, 2015, 07:11:17 pm
With a majority of voting delegates in favor, the Convention has elected to establish a 9 Member House of Representatives.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 19, 2015, 07:33:06 pm
The floor is now open for debate on the following questions:

1. Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?

2. How should the House of Representatives be elected (At-Large, Regionally, from Districts, or some other method)?

In 48 hours' time, if there are no objections, I will call Principle Votes on both of these issues.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 19, 2015, 07:39:46 pm
Personally, I would be open to tying the size of the House to the number of candidates, provided there were clear caps on how large/small the chamber could get. As Duke and others have pointed out, the House needs to be significantly larger than the Senate in order for bicameralism to be meaningful, so having fewer than 9 Representatives isn't a good idea; likewise, having more than 11/12 Representatives would make Congress too bulky.

As for the second proposal, I support electing the House At-Large: this balances the rights of the Regions with those of the national population, as each would have a house dedicated to representing them. Electing Representatives from the Regions would make the House little more than a larger version of the Senate, and a district system is but Regionalism under another name.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: tmthforu94 on November 19, 2015, 07:49:45 pm
Quote
1. Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
No.
Quote
2. How should the House of Representatives be elected (At-Large, Regionally, from Districts, or some other method)?
Well, if we are doing the Senate via regions, I would be open to electing these seats via at-large.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON SENATE ELECT.)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 19, 2015, 10:08:48 pm
Damn it, I was a couple hours too late.


I think At-Large is the best option for an obvious reason. Getting enough candidates for nine one an one elections would be a nightmare as you would need at least 18 candidates to make the thing work. What is worse, you would have to pull those candidates from a narrow tract of voters making it even more difficult. There is just no feasible or practical way to elect a 9 member house from a district based system.

At-Large allows you to pull from the entire nation, you can have a competative election with 12 to 15 candidates, and there will be greater ability to compete because you find your best voters anywhere in the country as opposed to just a handful of states.

Assuming I am doing my math right, the quota would be 12 under STV assuming 120 votes and 10 votes at 100 voters. Such a low threshold would mean you almost always have an opening for at least one independent House member, if not more. Granted, we might go with a different system, but STV works a lot better at 9 or 11 seats than it does at 5.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 20, 2015, 06:52:00 am
Yay, let's have only marginally-predictable elections with a 9-member chamber instead of entirely-predictable elections with a 5 or 7-member chamber. ::)

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 20, 2015, 06:18:46 pm
     I like at-large elections for the House, but we should think about the possibility of not electing it all at once. There are lots of possibilities here, so let's not hem it in.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Leinad on November 21, 2015, 05:17:44 am
I like PiT's idea to not elect them all at once. Maybe split it into 3 classes of 3 members, and if the number changes we can either have different-numbered classes (like how one of the US Senate's classes is 34 and the others are 33) or if, say, it's for 3-month terms and we have 10, we can have 4-winner elections each time, but 4th-place only gets a third of a term and is up next election.

Just throwing stuff at the convention wall to see what sticks.

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.

The point of the convention isn't to set a number to end all numbers, and leave it there for all eternity. The point of the convention is to bring more activity and interest to Atlasia, so when it comes to choosing the number of seats in a chamber it needs to be based on how many seats one forum-based elections game can sustain. Activity fluctuates, and even if it didn't it's hard to choose the Magic Number without seeing how things work, so why on earth would we want to set it to something we can't change without passing a constitutional amendment? It would make much more sense to have it naturally adjust to the activity.

And saying "we already had a vote" makes no sense when this option wasn't included, and wasn't even suggested until after the vote started. (Also, this is another example of the painfully annoying tendency of people to shoot down any debate simply because their prefered choice is the current status quo.)


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 21, 2015, 08:01:32 am
I don't think we should let the number of seats in the House to fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 21, 2015, 12:28:59 pm
I would prefer that the entire House be elected every two months. In order for bicameralism to have a meaningful effect on the game (beyond making it harder to pass legislation), the structure of the two houses needs to be significantly different. If we expand House terms to 3 months and divide it into two Classes, we're left with a lower house that is essentially a slightly larger version of the Senate. A two month term, combined with a single class of Representatives, ensures that the lower house will quickly respond to shifts in the electorate, with the Senate balancing these shifts against the rights of the Regions.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 22, 2015, 03:43:15 pm
A vote is now open on the following proposals. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[   ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[   ] At-Large
[   ] Regionally
[   ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Oakvale on November 22, 2015, 03:44:30 pm
Abstain, at-large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on November 22, 2015, 03:51:05 pm


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 22, 2015, 03:53:34 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[  ] YES
[X] NO
[  ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[ 1 ] At-Large
[ 3 ] Regionally
[ 2 ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Clark Kent on November 22, 2015, 04:07:56 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[X] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[3] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[1] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (Debating)
Post by: bore on November 22, 2015, 04:29:51 pm
No, At large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: MadmanMotley on November 22, 2015, 05:03:32 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[X] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[3] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[1] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: NeverAgain on November 22, 2015, 05:41:32 pm
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[ X ] YES
[   ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[ 1 ] At-Large
[ 2 ] Regionally
[ 3 ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: tmthforu94 on November 22, 2015, 05:46:41 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[X] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[1] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[3] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Clyde1998 on November 22, 2015, 05:48:21 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[X] YES
[ ] NO
[ ] Abstain

As a side note - it should be the amount of candidates in the upcoming election, rather than the previous election, however. For example, if there are five candidates for the upcoming election - there should only be three seats following that election to ensure there is a contest and if there are nine candidates in the election after, there should be five/seven seats available.

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[1] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[3] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: VPH on November 22, 2015, 06:15:27 pm
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[  ] YES
[ X ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[  3 ] At-Large
[ 1  ] Regionally
[ 2  ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on November 22, 2015, 06:25:51 pm

OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[  ] YES
[ X ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[ 3 ] At-Large
[ 1 ] Regionally
[ 2 ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 22, 2015, 06:39:53 pm
No, at large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Leinad on November 22, 2015, 06:47:03 pm
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[X] YES
[  ] NO
[  ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected?
[3] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[1] From Districts

I don't get why almost everyone's voting against the fluctuating seat proposal. The idea wasn't to pick a number and set it, completely ignoring actual activity results post-convention, but to have the right number to allow for competitive, exciting elections. This is the way to do that.

What if we miscalculate and 9 is too much, or too little? This is the way to keep that from happening. If we don't allow for variable seats, we're just stuck with the number whether it works or not. Hopefully we got it right, and this faith everyone's placing in the number 9 is justified, but I'm skeptical.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on November 22, 2015, 10:40:38 pm
No

At-Large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: SUSAN CRUSHBONE on November 23, 2015, 01:11:26 am
abstain

1 from districts
2 at large
3 regionally


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 23, 2015, 02:16:27 am
No, at-large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 23, 2015, 03:05:25 am
Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[ X  ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[  1 ] At-Large
[  3 ] Regionally
[  2 ] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 23, 2015, 03:12:29 am
Yay, let's have only marginally-predictable elections with a 9-member chamber instead of entirely-predictable elections with a 5 or 7-member chamber. ::)

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.

I am not sure what the reference at the top is about. I recall you saying STV only works at higher numbers than five and I acknowledged the alternatives. I was simply making the case for having them At-Large by illustrating the superiority a larger number of At-Large seats would have versus the current system using the same method.

I agree on variable House size, but for a different reason. Lowering the number of house seats would lower the benefits of its larger size and the competativeness of the elections. I have also concluded that the system is flawed from its use with the Imperial Legislature last year. There times when people were brought out to vote just to keep the size from contracting.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on November 23, 2015, 05:04:26 am
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
  • YES
[   ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[3] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[1] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on November 23, 2015, 01:04:55 pm
Yay, let's have only marginally-predictable elections with a 9-member chamber instead of entirely-predictable elections with a 5 or 7-member chamber. ::)

And why is everyone now talking about variable-sized chambers? We just had a principle vote on the size of the chamber. It's over.

I am not sure what the reference at the top is about. I recall you saying STV only works at higher numbers than five and I acknowledged the alternatives. I was simply making the case for having them At-Large by illustrating the superiority a larger number of At-Large seats would have versus the current system using the same method.

I was protesting in general that anything less than 11 is going to be weaksauce in terms of really making elections competitive and less predictable, while also allowing individuals from all walks of life the ability to get elected and ensuring that there is clear contrast in the inherent value of a seat in each chamber based on the number of people in each.

A 7-member chamber (which some were supporting) is essentially identical to a 5-member chamber, and certainly comparable in "value" when placed alongside a 6-member Senate. A 9-member chamber is only marginally better, but will still likely require a relatively large amount of support in order to win. Think about it this way: the more seats there are, the harder it is for major parties to field candidates to win as many as possible. Anyone against the "duopoly" should have supported a 11-member chamber on that virtue alone.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 23, 2015, 02:48:26 pm
Yup, and:

[1] At-Large
[2] from Districts
[3] from Regions


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on November 23, 2015, 07:25:57 pm
Sorry for being tardy to vote on the house size. It has been a hectic week for me.

Anyway, I wish we had gone with a larger house. It seems silly to me that we'd have a 9 member house and a 6 person senate, but I don't think going smaller than 6 in the senate is workable. I guess we are stuck with a 9 member house. At least 7 didn't make it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Senator Cris on November 24, 2015, 03:25:09 am
Isn't this a 48-hours vote? Truman opened the vote November 22 at 03:00 PM. So I guess it's still open.

A vote is now open on the following proposals. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

Quote
OFFICIAL BALLOT
Principle Vote on Fluctuating House Membership
Should the number of seats in the House of Representatives fluctuate in proportion to the number of candidates in the most recent election?
[   ] YES
[   ] NO
[   ] Abstain

Principle Vote on House Elections
How should the House of Representatives be elected? (Please use STV)
[   ] At-Large
[   ] Regionally
[   ] From Districts

No
Abstain

I'm voting Abstain because I have the fear that all 9 seats elected at-large would lead to a not exciting election, like the current At-Large ones. But at the same tim we can't have all seats elected by districts.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House. (PRINCIPLE VOTE HOUSE MEMBERSHIP)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 24, 2015, 11:42:56 am
Isn't this a 48-hours vote? Truman opened the vote November 22 at 03:00 PM. So I guess it's still open.
Yeah, the vote is still open (until later today, that is). For some reason, I thought I had opened the vote on Saturday.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Classic Conservative on November 24, 2015, 04:05:35 pm
No, At-Large


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 24, 2015, 04:42:31 pm
Nay

[1] At-Large
[2] Regionally
[3] From Districts


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (PRINCIPLE VOTE ON HOUSE ELECTION)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 24, 2015, 11:26:18 pm
Now the vote is closed.

RESULT of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on FLUCTUATING MEMBERSHIP
NAY (14)
AYE (4)
Abstain (3)

With a majority opposed, this proposal has been rejected.

RESULT of the PRINCIPLE VOTE on HOUSE ELECTIONS
At-Large (13)
Districts (5)
Regionally (2)
Abstain (1)

With a majority in favor, the Convention has elected to establish At-Large elections for the House of Representatives.


With these last two principle votes completed, this is what we have so far in terms of a draft of the new National Legislature:

2 House Congress (Senate + House of Reps)
       Senate: 2 Members/Region (6 total), Region's regulate elections
       House: 9 Members, elected at-large (PR)


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 27, 2015, 11:47:25 pm
Not to jump the gun, but am I correct in saying that the next task would be determing the election method for the At-Large House seats?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: ilikeverin on November 28, 2015, 09:09:48 am
Do we need to establish that as a Constitutional matter?  Or can we leave it up to the Senate/the House/the People?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 28, 2015, 02:40:09 pm
Do we need to establish that as a Constitutional matter?  Or can we leave it up to the Senate/the House/the People?

     Isn't it statutory already? We should probably just keep it that way.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on November 29, 2015, 02:58:05 am
Yes, but we voted to wipe all statutes, and the current Proportional Representation Act is designed for a five seat election to SEnate not a nine seat house election.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on November 30, 2015, 04:28:47 pm
     What I mean is, we should continue to codify it in the statute. How best to do that is an issue to be addressed in transitional committees.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on November 30, 2015, 05:11:26 pm
I think it would be a good idea to include a general description of how the House should be elected, but we needn't make it too technical. Something akin to Article II, Section 1 of the US Constitution would be appropriate: we would simply state the basic process for electing Representatives and leave the details to Congress.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: ilikeverin on December 01, 2015, 09:58:39 am
     What I mean is, we should continue to codify it in the statute. How best to do that is an issue to be addressed in transitional committees.

Yeah, exactly.  I don't think it would be wise to make the laws harder to change in case the ConCon screws up somehow.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 03, 2015, 11:16:20 pm
I will introduce an amendment incorporating the results of the last several principle votes shortly.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 04, 2015, 08:40:22 pm
I offer the following amendment:

Quote
ARTICLE [TBD]
Section 1 (The Legislature)
i. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives.
ii. The Vice President shall be the President of the Congress, but shall have no vote in the House of Representatives, nor in the Senate save when they be equally divided.

Section 2 (The Senate)
i. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof.
ii. No person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 1440 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Region they are chosen to represent.
iii. The Senate shall elect its senatus princeps and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. Upon the seating of the first Congress, the Senators shall be divided into two Classes of equal size, such that each Class shall consist of one Senator from each of the Regions. Members of the first Class shall be elected in the months of February, June, and October; members of the second Class shall be elected in the months of April, August, and December.
v. The Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments. In all trials of Impeachment, the Chief Justice shall preside, and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of 2/3 of the sitting Senators.
vi. Vacancies in the Senate shall be filled according to the laws of the effected Region; but in the absence of such a law, the executive power thereof shall have the authority to appoint a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 3 (The House of Representatives)
i. The House of Representatives shall consist of nine Members chosen at-large by the eligible voters of the Republic according to a method of proportional representation prescribed by the Federal Legislature. Representatives shall serve a term of two months, and shall be elected in the months of February, April, June, August, October, and December.
ii. No person shall be a Representative who has not attained 100 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 720 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
iii. The House of Representatives shall elect its Speaker and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of Impeachment.
v. Vacancies in the House of Representatives shall be filled by the executive of the effected Party; but should a vacancy occur as the result of the death, expulsion, or resignation of a Representative not being a member of a major Party, then a special election shall be held to chose a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 4 (Rules of Order)
i. Each Houses may adopt rules concerning the discipline and expulsion of its members; but no Senator or Representative shall be expelled but with the concurrence of 2/3 of the members of the effected House.
ii. Each House shall be the judge of its own elections and of the qualifications of its members.

Section 5 (Legislation)
i. Every bill, order, or resolution which shall have passed the Senate and the House of Representatives shall, before it becomes law, be submitted to the judgement of the President. If he approve of it he should sign it; but if he disapproves he should return the bill to the House in which it originated with his objections. If, after considering the objections of the President, both Houses should by a 2/3 vote agree to pass the same bill, it shall become law regardless of the President's objections.

Section 6 (Powers)
i. The Congress shall have the power, except where limited elsewhere by this Constitution, to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, and to distribute the Revenue thus collected;
to regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce;
to establish uniform laws of naturalization;
to regulate the value and coinage of the national currency;
to establish a uniform system of weights and measures;
to establish post offices and post roads;
to define and punish crimes committed on the high seas;
to declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water;
to raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces;
to admit new states and territories to the Union;
to make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds;
to confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments;
to establish a central national bank;
to make laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law; and
to regulate voter registration and federal elections.

Section 7 (Restrictions)
i. The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except when in cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public safety may require it.
ii. No Bill of Attainder or Ex Post Facto law shall be passed.
iii. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on articles exported from any Region.
iv. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in accordance with the Apportionments made by law.
v. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the Republic of Atlasia, and accordingly no person holding office under this Constitution shall accept any Title, Rank, or Office from any foreign state except in accordance with federal law.

Changes Made by This Amendment
  • Incorporates VP as "President of Congress"; allows him to break ties in the Senate (1.2)
  • Incorporates Principle Vote to leave Senate elections to the Regions (2.1)
  • Outlines impeachment procedure (2.5, 3.4)
  • Renames Senate PPT the "Senatus Princeps" (PPT literally translates to "president for the time being," which is a strange title for the permanent presiding officer) (2.3)
  • Sets HoR size at 9 Members, elected at-large (3.1)
  • Allows each chamber to establish its own rules of order (4.1, 4.2)
  • Outlines legislative process
  • Incorporates result of principle vote on Federal Powers (6.1)
  • Incorporates limits on Congressional authority found in US Constitution (7.1-7.5)

Delegates have 24 hours to object to Truman's amendment. HOWEVER, because it will be much easier to adopt this amendment and then make changes as necessary that it would be to reject this text and then start again from scratch, I respectfully ask that you refrain from objecting to this amendment. This is by no means a final text nor is it intended to settle every question before us: rather, my objective was to incorporate the changes made by the last several principle votes and to move to a text closer stylistically to the other Articles currently being drafted.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on December 05, 2015, 01:49:12 pm
     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 06, 2015, 01:34:48 pm
Seeing no objection, Truman's amendment has been ADOPTED.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 07, 2015, 06:22:41 pm
Thoughts? I know it's finals season/the holidays, but we can't afford to let the debate die.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on December 09, 2015, 01:19:50 am
     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on December 09, 2015, 07:51:50 am
     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.
We could use Prime Minister (or similar) to avoid confusion of having two people with 'President' in their title - and as PMs are generally Heads of Government and Presidents are generally Heads of State.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 09, 2015, 03:19:03 pm
     Interesting point about the name of the PPT. It reflects the difference in the role in the United States versus Atlasia, so I agree that we should have a more fitting name for it.

I suppose I agree, just as long as it is not a Senate Speaker, and is something similar to a Senate President, I'll be fine with it.
We could use Prime Minister (or similar) to avoid confusion of having two people with 'President' in their title - and as PMs are generally Heads of Government and Presidents are generally Heads of State.

I'd rather we abstained from using parliamentary titles, especially considering the existence of the Mock Parliament game. Calling the Senate leader "Prime Minister" might also create confusion for those familiar with parliamentary systems, as the post would not have any executive powers. I proposed "Senatus Princeps" (literally "Senate Leader") because that was the title given to the most senior member of the Roman Senate, a position that bears certain similarities to our PPT. I agree that we should avoid something along the lines of Senate President, especially considering that the VP has been styled "President of the Congress" - such only leads to confusion.

If there is a strong desire among the delegates to replace "Senatus Princeps" with another title, we could hold a quick principle vote to settle the matter.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on December 09, 2015, 10:59:20 pm
I agree, clearly we do not want to be using parliamentary titles, but we should not be using Latin terms either.



Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 09, 2015, 11:39:26 pm
I agree, clearly we do not want to be using parliamentary titles, but we should not be using Latin terms either.
To be fair, "President Pro Tempore" is Latin as well, and Atlasia has obvious historical ties to the Roman Republic. I don't want to get into a long argument about names, however; is there another title you would prefer? We've already named the House leader the "Speaker" and the VP the "President of Congress," so the two most obvious titles are in use. I suppose we could always just leave it up to the Senate itself (in fact, that might be the best option).


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on December 10, 2015, 12:27:32 am
I agree, clearly we do not want to be using parliamentary titles, but we should not be using Latin terms either.
To be fair, "President Pro Tempore" is Latin as well, and Atlasia has obvious historical ties to the Roman Republic. I don't want to get into a long argument about names, however; is there another title you would prefer? We've already named the House leader the "Speaker" and the VP the "President of Congress," so the two most obvious titles are in use. I suppose we could always just leave it up to the Senate itself (in fact, that might be the best option).

This could be a good compromise.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on December 10, 2015, 10:12:39 am
I agree, clearly we do not want to be using parliamentary titles, but we should not be using Latin terms either.
To be fair, "President Pro Tempore" is Latin as well, and Atlasia has obvious historical ties to the Roman Republic. I don't want to get into a long argument about names, however; is there another title you would prefer? We've already named the House leader the "Speaker" and the VP the "President of Congress," so the two most obvious titles are in use. I suppose we could always just leave it up to the Senate itself (in fact, that might be the best option).
Does the Vice President need an additional title? Although, as you said, it will be best to leave it up the the Senate.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on December 10, 2015, 12:25:25 pm
We could consider the title Executive Senator.

It is different from anything used in the real life United States Senate and would be distinctively Atlasian.   


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 10, 2015, 12:31:50 pm
I agree, clearly we do not want to be using parliamentary titles, but we should not be using Latin terms either.
To be fair, "President Pro Tempore" is Latin as well, and Atlasia has obvious historical ties to the Roman Republic. I don't want to get into a long argument about names, however; is there another title you would prefer? We've already named the House leader the "Speaker" and the VP the "President of Congress," so the two most obvious titles are in use. I suppose we could always just leave it up to the Senate itself (in fact, that might be the best option).
Does the Vice President need an additional title? Although, as you said, it will be best to leave it up the the Senate.
I think it's important, constitutionally speaking, to distinguish the VP's role as President of Congress from his role in the Administration. In the past, we've had vice presidents who have played an important role in advancing the president's agenda, even serving on the cabinet. I see this as a good thing (it prevents the office from becoming the "bucket of warm piss" that it was under the U.S. Constitution), but it's important to separate these partisan responsibilities from the nonpartisan job of coordinating the two houses of Congress. On a more stylistic note, naming the VP the "President of Congress" allows us to allude to this second duty without launching into a long-winded, legalistic description of the post (one that would almost certainly be imperfect and subject to frequent amendments, as the VP's current role as President of the Senate has been).



I hereby introduce a motion to strike the title "Senatus Princeps" from the text and replace it with the word "leader," allowing the Senate to select their presiding officer's title. Delegates have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on December 10, 2015, 05:22:36 pm
     Considering how big of a deal we made over regional self-determination, I like the compromise for senatorial self-determination here. This is the sort of direction we should be going in.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Leinad on December 11, 2015, 03:46:27 am
Considering how big of a deal we made over regional self-determination, I like the compromise for senatorial self-determination here. This is the sort of direction we should be going in.

Agreed.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on December 11, 2015, 07:07:40 am
I object to the proposal.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 11, 2015, 01:37:58 pm
Very well. A vote is now open on Truman's proposal. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

Quote
A MOTION
The words "Senatus Princeps" in Section 2, clause 3 of this Article will be replaced with the word "leader" to allow the Senate to select the title of its presiding officer.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on December 11, 2015, 05:46:31 pm
     Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on December 11, 2015, 05:50:29 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 11, 2015, 06:15:30 pm
AYE!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: NeverAgain on December 11, 2015, 06:20:58 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clark Kent on December 11, 2015, 06:24:35 pm
AYE


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: tmthforu94 on December 11, 2015, 06:28:14 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: VPH on December 11, 2015, 06:30:45 pm
aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on December 11, 2015, 06:35:02 pm
Abstain.

I feel that simply replacing the word 'senatus princeps' with 'leader' doesn't complete section two, clause three.

I propose something along the lines of:
Quote
iii. The Senate shall elect its own leader and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings and the name of it's leader and officers.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on December 11, 2015, 06:50:34 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: bore on December 12, 2015, 07:48:34 am
Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on December 12, 2015, 07:58:28 am
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee on December 12, 2015, 08:45:05 am
AYE


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: MyRescueKittehRocks on December 12, 2015, 11:24:40 am
I shall abstain as Clyde does make a pretty good point with regards to his proposed amendment.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on December 12, 2015, 07:31:01 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Classic Conservative on December 12, 2015, 08:40:28 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Fmr. Pres. Duke on December 13, 2015, 05:01:44 pm
Abstain


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Prince of Salem on December 13, 2015, 05:54:23 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on December 13, 2015, 11:35:53 pm
By a vote of 10 AYES, 0 NAYS, 5 Abstentions, and with two votes invalid and eight members not voting, this amendment has been ADOPTED.

The text for this Article is now as follows:

Quote
ARTICLE [TBD]
Section 1 (The Legislature)
i. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives.
ii. The Vice President shall be the President of the Congress, but shall have no vote in the House of Representatives, nor in the Senate save when they be equally divided.

Section 2 (The Senate)
i. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof.
ii. No person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 1440 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Region they are chosen to represent.
iii. The Senate shall elect its leader and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. Upon the seating of the first Congress, the Senators shall be divided into two Classes of equal size, such that each Class shall consist of one Senator from each of the Regions. Members of the first Class shall be elected in the months of February, June, and October; members of the second Class shall be elected in the months of April, August, and December.
v. The Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments. In all trials of Impeachment, the Chief Justice shall preside, and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of 2/3 of the sitting Senators.
vi. Vacancies in the Senate shall be filled according to the laws of the effected Region; but in the absence of such a law, the executive power thereof shall have the authority to appoint a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 3 (The House of Representatives)
i. The House of Representatives shall consist of nine Members chosen at-large by the eligible voters of the Republic according to a method of proportional representation prescribed by the Federal Legislature. Representatives shall serve a term of two months, and shall be elected in the months of February, April, June, August, October, and December.
ii. No person shall be a Representative who has not attained 100 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 720 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
iii. The House of Representatives shall elect its Speaker and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of Impeachment.
v. Vacancies in the House of Representatives shall be filled by the executive of the effected Party; but should a vacancy occur as the result of the death, expulsion, or resignation of a Representative not being a member of a major Party, then a special election shall be held to chose a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 4 (Rules of Order)
i. Each Houses may adopt rules concerning the discipline and expulsion of its members; but no Senator or Representative shall be expelled but with the concurrence of 2/3 of the members of the effected House.
ii. Each House shall be the judge of its own elections and of the qualifications of its members.

Section 5 (Legislation)
i. Every bill, order, or resolution which shall have passed the Senate and the House of Representatives shall, before it becomes law, be submitted to the judgement of the President. If he approve of it he should sign it; but if he disapproves he should return the bill to the House in which it originated with his objections. If, after considering the objections of the President, both Houses should by a 2/3 vote agree to pass the same bill, it shall become law regardless of the President's objections.

Section 6 (Powers)
i. The Congress shall have the power, except where limited elsewhere by this Constitution, to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, and to distribute the Revenue thus collected;
to regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce;
to establish uniform laws of naturalization;
to regulate the value and coinage of the national currency;
to establish a uniform system of weights and measures;
to establish post offices and post roads;
to define and punish crimes committed on the high seas;
to declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water;
to raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces;
to admit new states and territories to the Union;
to make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds;
to confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments;
to establish a central national bank;
to make laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law; and
to regulate voter registration and federal elections.

Section 7 (Restrictions)
i. The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except when in cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public safety may require it.
ii. No Bill of Attainder or Ex Post Facto law shall be passed.
iii. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on articles exported from any Region.
iv. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in accordance with the Apportionments made by law.
v. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the Republic of Atlasia, and accordingly no person holding office under this Constitution shall accept any Title, Rank, or Office from any foreign state except in accordance with federal law.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on December 20, 2015, 10:24:45 am
I like the idea of president of congress.
Although I would like to be defined in the constitution as well.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 01, 2016, 08:59:08 pm
I like the idea of president of congress.
Although I would like to be defined in the constitution as well.
I think it would be best to leave the duties of Congressional officers to Congress itself. That way, tweaks to the legislative process can be accomplished quickly, rather than through the drawn-out process for amending the Constitution.

On another note, I've been thinking about the limitations on simultaneous officeholding. I'm thinking something along these lines:

- No person may hold the office of President or Supreme Court Justice simultaneously with any other office
- No member of Congress may serve as a member of both houses simultaneously
- No member of Congress may simultaneously serve as VP
- No Representative may serve simultaneously as Senator or as a Governor
- No Senator may serve simultaneously as a Representative or as a member of a Regional government
- Members of Congress CAN serve as cabinet secretaries, as can the VP
- Representatives CAN serve simultaneously as members of their Regional legislature/judiciary

The last measure is intended to boost interest in serving in the House: based on the structure of that branch, the workload per Representative should be lighter, so it shouldn't be a problem for a member of the House to serve simultaneously in the Regional legislature/judiciary. I exempted the Senate from this provision because potentially the Regional legislatures might elect the Senate and because the workload for that body would be presumably greater.

I'd be interested to hear any thoughts y'all might have on the matter.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clark Kent on January 02, 2016, 10:21:03 am
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot? Even if we cut it down to three or four regions, that's still at least 15 Congressmen, compared to the 10 Senators we have now. Maybe keep one regional Senator, and have, say, seven members of the House?


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: NeverAgain on January 02, 2016, 01:54:29 pm
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot? Even if we cut it down to three or four regions, that's still at least 15 Congressmen, compared to the 10 Senators we have now. Maybe keep one regional Senator, and have, say, seven members of the House?
Or one regional Senator and then two House members per region. Leaving there to be 9 legislators for the 3 regions.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 02, 2016, 01:59:14 pm
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot?
Be that as it may, both of the questions you raised have already been answered by a democratic vote of this chamber: for good or ill (and I am inclined to say the former), the House of Representatives shall consist of nine members and the national map of three Regions. Those issues are no longer on the table for further debate. You are free to introduce an amendment limiting each Region to one Senator, but I would advise against it: a three-member Senate would be too small to appropriately represent the will of the electorate and would be disproportionately more influential than the House (as each Senator would be, in effect, the equivalent of three Representatives).

I don't discount the danger of governmental bloating, however: this is why I suggested allowing citizens to serve as members of the House and as Regional legislators simultaneously. Keep in mind that we are already reducing the number of offices nationally as a result of consolidation: under the current plan, there would be 40 Regional and federal offices, as opposed to 53 currently.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 02, 2016, 02:06:27 pm
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot? Even if we cut it down to three or four regions, that's still at least 15 Congressmen, compared to the 10 Senators we have now. Maybe keep one regional Senator, and have, say, seven members of the House?
Or one regional Senator and then two House members per region. Leaving there to be 9 legislators for the 3 regions.
Again, as I stated above, we have already held principle votes on the size and structure of the House of Representatives. The democratically-expressed will of the Convention is for the House to consist of 9 members elected At-Large by the national electorate. We are not re-litigating these issues.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: NeverAgain on January 02, 2016, 02:37:19 pm
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot? Even if we cut it down to three or four regions, that's still at least 15 Congressmen, compared to the 10 Senators we have now. Maybe keep one regional Senator, and have, say, seven members of the House?
Or one regional Senator and then two House members per region. Leaving there to be 9 legislators for the 3 regions.
Again, as I stated above, we have already held principle votes on the size and structure of the House of Representatives. The democratically-expressed will of the Convention is for the House to consist of 9 members elected At-Large by the national electorate. We are not re-litigating these issues.
My apologies, I didn't see that before responding.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 02, 2016, 03:51:32 pm
So nine members of the House, and two Senators per region...doesn't that seem like a lot? Even if we cut it down to three or four regions, that's still at least 15 Congressmen, compared to the 10 Senators we have now. Maybe keep one regional Senator, and have, say, seven members of the House?
Or one regional Senator and then two House members per region. Leaving there to be 9 legislators for the 3 regions.
Again, as I stated above, we have already held principle votes on the size and structure of the House of Representatives. The democratically-expressed will of the Convention is for the House to consist of 9 members elected At-Large by the national electorate. We are not re-litigating these issues.
My apologies, I didn't see that before responding.
No worries - just so long as we're on the same page.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 05, 2016, 07:35:45 pm
Alright, folks, lets get this show on the road! The current text of this Article, as of the adoption of the most recent motion, can be read here (https://uselectionatlas.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=220718.msg4828434#msg4828434). I ask that every delegate take a moment to read through this text and wrack their brains for any last-minute alterations or additions that might need to be made. If there is no further debate, I WILL CALL A FINAL VOTE ON THIS ARTICLE IN 48 HOURS TIME. If you have ANY questions or concerns about this Article, I ask that you send me a PM or post them in this thread sometime the next two days; otherwise, I will assume that everything is perfect and will go ahead with the final vote.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 07, 2016, 07:56:15 pm
I motion for a final vote on this Article. Delegates have 24 hours to object.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 08, 2016, 09:09:14 pm
A final vote is now open on this Article. Please vote AYE, NAY, or Abstain. Voting will last 48 hours or until all delegates have voted.

Quote
ARTICLE [TBD]
Section 1 (The Legislature)
i. All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia, which shall consist of a Senate and a House of Representatives.
ii. The Vice President shall be the President of the Congress, but shall have no vote in the House of Representatives, nor in the Senate save when they be equally divided.

Section 2 (The Senate)
i. The Senate of the Republic of Atlasia shall consist of two Senators from each Region, elected for a term of four months in the manner prescribed by the legislature thereof.
ii. No person shall be a Senator who has not attained 200 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 1440 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Region they are chosen to represent.
iii. The Senate shall elect its leader and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. Upon the seating of the first Congress, the Senators shall be divided into two Classes of equal size, such that each Class shall consist of one Senator from each of the Regions. Members of the first Class shall be elected in the months of February, June, and October; members of the second Class shall be elected in the months of April, August, and December.
v. The Senate shall have the sole power to try all Impeachments. In all trials of Impeachment, the Chief Justice shall preside, and no person shall be convicted without the concurrence of 2/3 of the sitting Senators.
vi. Vacancies in the Senate shall be filled according to the laws of the effected Region; but in the absence of such a law, the executive power thereof shall have the authority to appoint a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 3 (The House of Representatives)
i. The House of Representatives shall consist of nine Members chosen at-large by the eligible voters of the Republic according to a method of proportional representation prescribed by the Federal Legislature. Representatives shall serve a term of two months, and shall be elected in the months of February, April, June, August, October, and December.
ii. No person shall be a Representative who has not attained 100 or more posts, nor whose account is fewer than 720 hours old, nor who is not a citizen of the Republic of Atlasia.
iii. The House of Representatives shall elect its Speaker and other officers, and shall have sole authority to determine its own methods of proceedings.
iv. The House of Representatives shall have the sole power of Impeachment.
v. Vacancies in the House of Representatives shall be filled by the executive of the effected Party; but should a vacancy occur as the result of the death, expulsion, or resignation of a Representative not being a member of a major Party, then a special election shall be held to chose a replacement to serve the remainder of the existing term.

Section 4 (Rules of Order)
i. Each Houses may adopt rules concerning the discipline and expulsion of its members; but no Senator or Representative shall be expelled but with the concurrence of 2/3 of the members of the effected House.
ii. Each House shall be the judge of its own elections and of the qualifications of its members.

Section 5 (Legislation)
i. Every bill, order, or resolution which shall have passed the Senate and the House of Representatives shall, before it becomes law, be submitted to the judgement of the President. If he approve of it he should sign it; but if he disapproves he should return the bill to the House in which it originated with his objections. If, after considering the objections of the President, both Houses should by a 2/3 vote agree to pass the same bill, it shall become law regardless of the President's objections.

Section 6 (Powers)
i. The Congress shall have the power, except where limited elsewhere by this Constitution, to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts, and Excises, and to distribute the Revenue thus collected;
to regulate foreign trade and interregional commerce;
to establish uniform laws of naturalization;
to regulate the value and coinage of the national currency;
to establish a uniform system of weights and measures;
to establish post offices and post roads;
to define and punish crimes committed on the high seas;
to declare war, issue letters of marque and reprisal, and make laws governing the capture of land and water;
to raise, support, and regulate the national armed forces;
to admit new states and territories to the Union;
to make laws governing borrowing, lending, and the selling of stocks and bonds;
to confirm or reject nominations for the Supreme Court and the officers of executive departments;
to establish a central national bank;
to make laws necessary for the enforcement of the Constitution and federal law; and
to regulate voter registration and federal elections.

Section 7 (Restrictions)
i. The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, except when in cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public safety may require it.
ii. No Bill of Attainder or Ex Post Facto law shall be passed.
iii. No Tax or Duty shall be laid on articles exported from any Region.
iv. No money shall be drawn from the Treasury but in accordance with the Apportionments made by law.
v. No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the Republic of Atlasia, and accordingly no person holding office under this Constitution shall accept any Title, Rank, or Office from any foreign state except in accordance with federal law.


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: NeverAgain on January 08, 2016, 09:53:12 pm
Aye!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: VPH on January 08, 2016, 10:11:22 pm
aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 08, 2016, 10:41:53 pm
AYE!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Pack the Court & Lock Him Up on January 08, 2016, 11:32:18 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: tmthforu94 on January 09, 2016, 12:06:21 am
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Senator Cris on January 09, 2016, 06:47:03 am
AYE!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Classic Conservative on January 09, 2016, 06:52:47 am
AYE


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Former Lincoln Assemblyman & Lt. Gov. RGN on January 09, 2016, 10:08:44 am
AYE


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Clyde1998 on January 09, 2016, 12:23:33 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Associate Justice PiT on January 09, 2016, 01:56:25 pm
     Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: ilikeverin on January 09, 2016, 02:22:06 pm
Yup


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Chief Justice windjammer on January 09, 2016, 05:54:05 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Leinad on January 10, 2016, 04:11:26 am
Aye!


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: bore on January 10, 2016, 07:36:15 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Lincoln Republican on January 10, 2016, 10:57:57 pm
Aye


Title: Re: Structure, size and elections of Senate/House (Debating)
Post by: Unconditional Surrender Truman on January 11, 2016, 03:42:54 pm
By a vote of 15 Ayes, 0 Nays, and with eight delegates not voting, this Article has been ADOPTED.

As such, I hereby declare debate to be CLOSED in this thread.