After exodus of conservative congregations, United Methodist Church lifts restriction on LGBT clergy

[Never Made it to Graceland]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/01/us/united-methodist-church-lgbtq-clergy-reaj/index.html

In 1984, the church banned “self-avowed practicing homosexuals” from becoming members of the clergy, and later added performing or celebrating same-sex unions to “a list of chargeable offenses that could result in a church trial,” according to a timeline of the church’s history with the LGBTQ community.

The Methodist community spent the ensuing decades debating, fighting and praying over their stance on gay clergy and LGBTQ members. But Wednesday’s vote by the church’s top legislative body signaled a historic shift toward acceptance and inclusion.

In a 692-51 vote, church leaders passed several rules without debate, including overturning both its ban on gay clergy and the penalties for holding same-sex marriages, according to the United Methodist News service.

[LabourJersey]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

[jojoju1998]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

[LabourJersey]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Yes, this is basically correct - they both teach that *somehow* the presence of Christ is really in the Eucharist. How exactly depends on who you're asking, which is fine.

I'm a very high church/Anglo Catholic type and I'm completely fine with Methodists and lower-church people having a different view of the Eucharist, as long as they care about the importance of that sacrament, which I know Methodists do.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Yes, this is basically correct - they both teach that *somehow* the presence of Christ is really in the Eucharist. How exactly depends on who you're asking, which is fine.

I'm a very high church/Anglo Catholic type and I'm completely fine with Methodists and lower-church people having a different view of the Eucharist, as long as they care about the importance of that sacrament, which I know Methodists do.

I agree. Theologically I’m much closer to a Catholic than a Methodist, but they definitely care about the Eucharist, and we can get them in on the historic episcopate over time.

[TDAS04]

Cool.

[RINO Tom]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

[LabourJersey]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

You're correct historically about the range of views in the Episcopal Church, but over the past 50 years the Reformed view (and the Reformed tradition in the church writ large) has declined significantly in favor of the Lutheran and Catholic views (especially the Catholic side).

[100% pro-life no matter what]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

These debates about "open communion" are interesting from my perspective.  In Baptist and non-denominational churches, the view of Communion is that it is open to any believer in Jesus/Christian, regardless of denomination.  But, we also take a purely symbolic view of Communion.  I think I'd mistakenly assumed that all Protestant denominations had Communion open to all Christians.

[RINO Tom]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

These debates about "open communion" are interesting from my perspective.  In Baptist and non-denominational churches, the view of Communion is that it is open to any believer in Jesus/Christian, regardless of denomination.  But, we also take a purely symbolic view of Communion.  I think I'd mistakenly assumed that all Protestant denominations had Communion open to all Christians.

Well, when you think communion is pretty much meaningless, who cares who else can participate??    Lol.

To be clear, though, practicing open communion is not the same as being in FULL communion.  The former just means all baptized Christians are welcome to come receive the Lord’s Supper during the service, regardless of their personal views on the presence of Christ - something my ELCA Lutheran church does but something LCMS Lutheran churches do not.  Being in FULL communion allows things like a United Church of Christ minister to be able to pastor at my Lutheran church, totally disregarding the theological differences between our historic confessions.  I fully support open communion, but I think denominations should only be in full communion if they are close theologically.  Presbyterians and Dutch Reformed or Lutherans and Anglicans?  Sure.  Lutherans and Congregationalists?  Don’t like that.

P.S.  I was in North Carolina the other weekend and saw a lot of beautiful historic Baptist churches; I even looked a few up on Google, and they all looked traditional inside.  I really wish so many modern Baptists weren’t seemingly so eager to abandon that architectural heritage for the contemporary auditorium look.

[Skill and Chance]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

I feel the most likely and most concerning "fail mode" for Protestantism would be for it to become a "church of generic Anglo-American liberalism" and a "church of generic Anglo-American conservatism" arguing opposite sides of the sexual revolution forever with basically zero regard for any history/traditions predating that.  If it goes significantly down that road, I think I would just become Catholic.

[LabourJersey]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

I feel the most likely and most concerning "fail mode" for Protestantism would be for it to become a "church of generic Anglo-American liberalism" and a "church of generic Anglo-American conservatism" arguing opposite sides of the sexual revolution forever with basically zero regard for any history/traditions predating that.  If it goes significantly down that road, I think I would just become Catholic.

I would go against this, only because the younger people who are actually involved in the Episcopal Church that I know are all very interested in the tradition and the liturgy as part of worship.

Now I do go to an Anglo-Catholic church, so take it with a grain of salt, but there will always be a corner of the Protestant tradition that's alive in America and takes history and liturgy very seriously, even if it may not be large in size.

[RINO Tom]

^ Anecdotally, I feel like there is a HUGE void that could be filled by more liturgical Protestantism right now among young, impressionable American Christians.  I have heard of so many low church evangelicals online who are super pumped for their conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, MOSTLY anchored by a desire to be more in touch with traditional worship style and church history.  A jump to Lutheranism, Anglicanism or even "middle church" denominations like Methodism and Presbyterianism would be a much more natural home for these folks, culturally and theologically.

Modern American Protestantism really is a mess, and I anecdotally see a lot of younger Christians who crave a traditional setting ... and they're under the false impression that their main two options are contemporary Evangelicalism or Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's actually quite frustrating that the Mainline churches - even as they shed membership at rapid rates - are not aggressively promoting their tradition to these folks.

[Associate Justice PiT]

^ Anecdotally, I feel like there is a HUGE void that could be filled by more liturgical Protestantism right now among young, impressionable American Christians.  I have heard of so many low church evangelicals online who are super pumped for their conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, MOSTLY anchored by a desire to be more in touch with traditional worship style and church history.  A jump to Lutheranism, Anglicanism or even "middle church" denominations like Methodism and Presbyterianism would be a much more natural home for these folks, culturally and theologically.

Modern American Protestantism really is a mess, and I anecdotally see a lot of younger Christians who crave a traditional setting ... and they're under the false impression that their main two options are contemporary Evangelicalism or Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's actually quite frustrating that the Mainline churches - even as they shed membership at rapid rates - are not aggressively promoting their tradition to these folks.

     Part of the issue though is that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have very strong claims on the deep history of Christianity. During the Sundays of Great Lent I can hear homilies about St. Mary of Egypt (4th Century), St. John of the Ladder (6th Century), the Triumph of Orthodoxy (9th Century), and St. Gregory Palamas (14th Century). While I agree that Protestantism can regain some appeal by going back to the roots of the Reformation, there is still the elephant in the room that that comes quite late and efforts to claim earlier events and figures as part of the Protestant tradition are rather tortured. I will say that I have seen some very intelligent Protestants argue that they have a real claim to the historic faith of the Church, mainly by gleaning support for Sola Scriptura from the writings of the Church Fathers. Maybe it's due to a lack of support, but these arguments never seem to gain traction.

     Perhaps of interest to you, on Twitter there has been a debate recently between Western Rite and Eastern Rite Orthodox Christians over the point of cultural familiarity. The Western Rite's supporters are convinced that they can convert Americans much more easily because it's less of a divergence from what they are used to. Some of them get into weird theories wherein Roman Rite liturgies have epigenetically modified the peoples of Western Europe to respond positively to them. I don't think there is much credence to that, but there is a nonzero segment of people who genuinely resonate with traditional Western liturgics and enjoy a church that embraces those.

[Skill and Chance]

Once the Global Methodist Church formed and the schism was not quite as disastrous as expected, this action was inevitable. I'm happy for our Methodist brothers and sisters.

I'm personally very interested in seeing the outcome of the proposed full communion between the United Methodists and the Episcopal Church (similar to the current communion between the Lutherans and Episcoplians). I think as the mainline continues to profound shake up (I won't call it a terminal decline just yet), I think the more liturgical churches that are also LGBT affirming need to band together.

Don't disagree per se; but don't Methodists and Episcopalians have.... differing understandings of the Eucharist ?

I believe they both officially teach a vague and somewhat ambiguous notion of the Real Presence. I know some Episcopalians are concerned about apostolic succession, but that was resolved with the Lutherans vía co-consecration of bishops.

Isn't there a wide range within Anglicanism RE: the Lord's Supper, ranging from the Lutheran view (i.e., real, physical presence but without any necessary miracle performed by a Priest) to the Reformed view (i.e., spiritual presence but not physical, real presence)?  I always assumed Methodism just adopted the Anglican point of view(s) on this issue.

Unfortunately, many of the Mainline churches barely care about things like this ... otherwise my denomination (the ELCA) wouldn't think twice about being in full communion with the United Church of Christ, which I can barely consider a real church at this point.  And by the way, I say this as a relatively theologically liberal guy ... I just don't want to see Mainline Protestants consolidate into some vague SJW-first "United Protestant" denomination that really isn't concerned with doctrine in any true way and mostly functions as a political action group with some liturgical traditions attached.  The UCC is already there if you look at their social media, and I do not want to see the others go down that route.

With that said, I am all for them working together and sharing resources.  I just think doctrinal differences are part of our heritages and need to be treated a little more importantly.  The Episcopal Church and the UMC is about the most natural partnership between the Seven Sisters, as far as I can tell.

These debates about "open communion" are interesting from my perspective.  In Baptist and non-denominational churches, the view of Communion is that it is open to any believer in Jesus/Christian, regardless of denomination.  But, we also take a purely symbolic view of Communion.  I think I'd mistakenly assumed that all Protestant denominations had Communion open to all Christians.

It's rare in Protestantism, but it does exist.  Some traditionalist Anglicans, LCMS Lutherans and Appalachian Old Regular Baptists have a members only policy for communion.  But yes, anyone who has been baptized is the norm, including many Protestant churches that affirm real presence.

[RINO Tom]

^ Anecdotally, I feel like there is a HUGE void that could be filled by more liturgical Protestantism right now among young, impressionable American Christians.  I have heard of so many low church evangelicals online who are super pumped for their conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, MOSTLY anchored by a desire to be more in touch with traditional worship style and church history.  A jump to Lutheranism, Anglicanism or even "middle church" denominations like Methodism and Presbyterianism would be a much more natural home for these folks, culturally and theologically.

Modern American Protestantism really is a mess, and I anecdotally see a lot of younger Christians who crave a traditional setting ... and they're under the false impression that their main two options are contemporary Evangelicalism or Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's actually quite frustrating that the Mainline churches - even as they shed membership at rapid rates - are not aggressively promoting their tradition to these folks.

     Part of the issue though is that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have very strong claims on the deep history of Christianity. During the Sundays of Great Lent I can hear homilies about St. Mary of Egypt (4th Century), St. John of the Ladder (6th Century), the Triumph of Orthodoxy (9th Century), and St. Gregory Palamas (14th Century). While I agree that Protestantism can regain some appeal by going back to the roots of the Reformation, there is still the elephant in the room that that comes quite late and efforts to claim earlier events and figures as part of the Protestant tradition are rather tortured. I will say that I have seen some very intelligent Protestants argue that they have a real claim to the historic faith of the Church, mainly by gleaning support for Sola Scriptura from the writings of the Church Fathers. Maybe it's due to a lack of support, but these arguments never seem to gain traction.

     Perhaps of interest to you, on Twitter there has been a debate recently between Western Rite and Eastern Rite Orthodox Christians over the point of cultural familiarity. The Western Rite's supporters are convinced that they can convert Americans much more easily because it's less of a divergence from what they are used to. Some of them get into weird theories wherein Roman Rite liturgies have epigenetically modified the peoples of Western Europe to respond positively to them. I don't think there is much credence to that, but there is a nonzero segment of people who genuinely resonate with traditional Western liturgics and enjoy a church that embraces those.

But just as everything from the Early Church (pre-Great Schism) is the heritage of both the Roman Catholic AND Eastern Orthodox Churches (e.g., the Council of Nicea), so too it is our perspective that everything in the Western Church from the Great Schism to the Reformation - not to mention everything before that - is OUR heritage, too!  The Lutheran state churches in Germany and Scandinavia, the Presbyterian state church in Scotland, the Anglican Church of England, etc. didn’t just pop up in the 1500s.  They viewed Rome as the corrupt one who’d strayed and ex-communicated THEM … they remained the same catholic churches as before.  In other words, the history and heritage of Protestantism is much older than 500 years, even if no one felt the need to give us a name before that (a name we never wanted, as we truly believed and still believe that we are reformed catholics).

One can take issue with this perspective, but it’s undeniable that modern American Protestants do a terrible job at articulating it!

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

[RINO Tom]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

I certainly agree with you as far as European Protestants and the American Protestants that trace their heritage back to Europe (e.g., Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.).  However, I do see a disturbing trend in many Evangelical churches (using that term in an exclusively American context here, to especially refer to Non-Denominational churches and newer "Revival" denominations like Pentecostals) where their adherents practically have an antagonism toward church history.  Baptists are a mixed bag, as some have a real appreciation for Church history (while putting less authority there, so to speak), while others do not.

[Associate Justice PiT]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

     Point taken, though my experience sitting through a few sermons at my wife's Evangelical church is that the preacher is more likely to interact with the event from a strictly literary standpoint wherein everything we know about it is simply what is stated in the text, whereas an Orthodox priest will talk about historical context and highlight commentaries in order to demonstrate more about the topic (and with something like the Triumph of Orthodoxy the event is incomprehensible unless you do that). It probably does make a difference versus not covering these topics at all, but I think there is a big difference between reading history as a book and reading a book as history.

^ Anecdotally, I feel like there is a HUGE void that could be filled by more liturgical Protestantism right now among young, impressionable American Christians.  I have heard of so many low church evangelicals online who are super pumped for their conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, MOSTLY anchored by a desire to be more in touch with traditional worship style and church history.  A jump to Lutheranism, Anglicanism or even "middle church" denominations like Methodism and Presbyterianism would be a much more natural home for these folks, culturally and theologically.

Modern American Protestantism really is a mess, and I anecdotally see a lot of younger Christians who crave a traditional setting ... and they're under the false impression that their main two options are contemporary Evangelicalism or Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's actually quite frustrating that the Mainline churches - even as they shed membership at rapid rates - are not aggressively promoting their tradition to these folks.

     Part of the issue though is that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have very strong claims on the deep history of Christianity. During the Sundays of Great Lent I can hear homilies about St. Mary of Egypt (4th Century), St. John of the Ladder (6th Century), the Triumph of Orthodoxy (9th Century), and St. Gregory Palamas (14th Century). While I agree that Protestantism can regain some appeal by going back to the roots of the Reformation, there is still the elephant in the room that that comes quite late and efforts to claim earlier events and figures as part of the Protestant tradition are rather tortured. I will say that I have seen some very intelligent Protestants argue that they have a real claim to the historic faith of the Church, mainly by gleaning support for Sola Scriptura from the writings of the Church Fathers. Maybe it's due to a lack of support, but these arguments never seem to gain traction.

     Perhaps of interest to you, on Twitter there has been a debate recently between Western Rite and Eastern Rite Orthodox Christians over the point of cultural familiarity. The Western Rite's supporters are convinced that they can convert Americans much more easily because it's less of a divergence from what they are used to. Some of them get into weird theories wherein Roman Rite liturgies have epigenetically modified the peoples of Western Europe to respond positively to them. I don't think there is much credence to that, but there is a nonzero segment of people who genuinely resonate with traditional Western liturgics and enjoy a church that embraces those.

But just as everything from the Early Church (pre-Great Schism) is the heritage of both the Roman Catholic AND Eastern Orthodox Churches (e.g., the Council of Nicea), so too it is our perspective that everything in the Western Church from the Great Schism to the Reformation - not to mention everything before that - is OUR heritage, too!  The Lutheran state churches in Germany and Scandinavia, the Presbyterian state church in Scotland, the Anglican Church of England, etc. didn’t just pop up in the 1500s.  They viewed Rome as the corrupt one who’d strayed and ex-communicated THEM … they remained the same catholic churches as before.  In other words, the history and heritage of Protestantism is much older than 500 years, even if no one felt the need to give us a name before that (a name we never wanted, as we truly believed and still believe that we are reformed catholics).

One can take issue with this perspective, but it’s undeniable that modern American Protestants do a terrible job at articulating it!

     I've seen Protestants propound that view, but I think the big difficulty there is that if you look at pretty much any pre-Reformation Western saint they diverge from Protestant views in a pretty big way. Even St. Augustine, who is most often cited, clearly believed in the necessity of maintaining communion with the various apostolic sees. The most common approach is to try to read Sola Scriptura into various Church Fathers and proceed from there, but if we accept that and thus add their various other positions to the realm of what Sola Scriptura can lead one to, it seems to only increase the chaos that exists in the realm of Protestantism.

     Mind you I speak from a position of not being and never having been Protestant, so maybe this critique doesn't bother someone on the inside of that movement. I do think Anglicans can square the circle I described most easily, since they already are explicit that their conception of the Church includes Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and they prefer to define their exegetical approach as Prima Scriptura instead of Sola Scriptura.

[jojoju1998]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

Correction : Since the Second Vatican Council, there has been a emphasis by the Catholic Church on the Nicene Church Fathers, and scripture, going back to the sources. Theologians such as Henri De Lubac, Joseph Ratzinger ( aka Pope Benedict XVI ) and others.

[jojoju1998]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

I certainly agree with you as far as European Protestants and the American Protestants that trace their heritage back to Europe (e.g., Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.).  However, I do see a disturbing trend in many Evangelical churches (using that term in an exclusively American context here, to especially refer to Non-Denominational churches and newer "Revival" denominations like Pentecostals) where their adherents practically have an antagonism toward church history.  Baptists are a mixed bag, as some have a real appreciation for Church history (while putting less authority there, so to speak), while others do not.

One reason why I appreciate Catholic Seminary training ( ironically a response to the real issues that led to the Protestant Reformation ), is because seminarians really get to connect scripture, church history, and systematic theology, and tie it all together.

[jojoju1998]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

     Point taken, though my experience sitting through a few sermons at my wife's Evangelical church is that the preacher is more likely to interact with the event from a strictly literary standpoint wherein everything we know about it is simply what is stated in the text, whereas an Orthodox priest will talk about historical context and highlight commentaries in order to demonstrate more about the topic (and with something like the Triumph of Orthodoxy the event is incomprehensible unless you do that). It probably does make a difference versus not covering these topics at all, but I think there is a big difference between reading history as a book and reading a book as history.

^ Anecdotally, I feel like there is a HUGE void that could be filled by more liturgical Protestantism right now among young, impressionable American Christians.  I have heard of so many low church evangelicals online who are super pumped for their conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, MOSTLY anchored by a desire to be more in touch with traditional worship style and church history.  A jump to Lutheranism, Anglicanism or even "middle church" denominations like Methodism and Presbyterianism would be a much more natural home for these folks, culturally and theologically.

Modern American Protestantism really is a mess, and I anecdotally see a lot of younger Christians who crave a traditional setting ... and they're under the false impression that their main two options are contemporary Evangelicalism or Catholicism/Eastern Orthodoxy.  It's actually quite frustrating that the Mainline churches - even as they shed membership at rapid rates - are not aggressively promoting their tradition to these folks.

     Part of the issue though is that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have very strong claims on the deep history of Christianity. During the Sundays of Great Lent I can hear homilies about St. Mary of Egypt (4th Century), St. John of the Ladder (6th Century), the Triumph of Orthodoxy (9th Century), and St. Gregory Palamas (14th Century). While I agree that Protestantism can regain some appeal by going back to the roots of the Reformation, there is still the elephant in the room that that comes quite late and efforts to claim earlier events and figures as part of the Protestant tradition are rather tortured. I will say that I have seen some very intelligent Protestants argue that they have a real claim to the historic faith of the Church, mainly by gleaning support for Sola Scriptura from the writings of the Church Fathers. Maybe it's due to a lack of support, but these arguments never seem to gain traction.

     Perhaps of interest to you, on Twitter there has been a debate recently between Western Rite and Eastern Rite Orthodox Christians over the point of cultural familiarity. The Western Rite's supporters are convinced that they can convert Americans much more easily because it's less of a divergence from what they are used to. Some of them get into weird theories wherein Roman Rite liturgies have epigenetically modified the peoples of Western Europe to respond positively to them. I don't think there is much credence to that, but there is a nonzero segment of people who genuinely resonate with traditional Western liturgics and enjoy a church that embraces those.

But just as everything from the Early Church (pre-Great Schism) is the heritage of both the Roman Catholic AND Eastern Orthodox Churches (e.g., the Council of Nicea), so too it is our perspective that everything in the Western Church from the Great Schism to the Reformation - not to mention everything before that - is OUR heritage, too!  The Lutheran state churches in Germany and Scandinavia, the Presbyterian state church in Scotland, the Anglican Church of England, etc. didn’t just pop up in the 1500s.  They viewed Rome as the corrupt one who’d strayed and ex-communicated THEM … they remained the same catholic churches as before.  In other words, the history and heritage of Protestantism is much older than 500 years, even if no one felt the need to give us a name before that (a name we never wanted, as we truly believed and still believe that we are reformed catholics).

One can take issue with this perspective, but it’s undeniable that modern American Protestants do a terrible job at articulating it!

     I've seen Protestants propound that view, but I think the big difficulty there is that if you look at pretty much any pre-Reformation Western saint they diverge from Protestant views in a pretty big way. Even St. Augustine, who is most often cited, clearly believed in the necessity of maintaining communion with the various apostolic sees. The most common approach is to try to read Sola Scriptura into various Church Fathers and proceed from there, but if we accept that and thus add their various other positions to the realm of what Sola Scriptura can lead one to, it seems to only increase the chaos that exists in the realm of Protestantism.

     Mind you I speak from a position of not being and never having been Protestant, so maybe this critique doesn't bother someone on the inside of that movement. I do think Anglicans can square the circle I described most easily, since they already are explicit that their conception of the Church includes Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy and they prefer to define their exegetical approach as Prima Scriptura instead of Sola Scriptura.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach Prima Scriptura per se.

The emphasis on the Church in the Catholic Tradition, really I think forms how Catholics view scripture.

In the Catholic Worldview, Christ did not make the bible. Christ created the church, he established the church. A visible functioning insitution in the world. The church existed before the creation of the bibical canon which itself, a written witness to Divine Revelation, which was accomplished through the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Christ, but it's not divine revelation itself.

The New Testament came out of the Church. It was written by members of the Church. What is written in the New Testament was spoken before it was written down. The books that were placed in the New Testament were selected by the Church.

In a sense, the Old Testament also came out of the Church, which had adopted the Septuagint version of the Old Testament that was in use at the time of Christ and actually confirmed a canon in writing of the Old Testament before Jews confirmed a formal Hebrew canon in writing.




The Second Vatican Council, in its Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), defines Sacred Tradition as what

“the apostles who, by their oral preaching, by example, and by observances handed on what they had received from the lips of Christ, from living with him, and from what he did, or what they learned from the prompting of the Holy Spirit”

So Apostolic Tradition consists of:

Oral transmission of Divine Revelation

Demonstrated practices (how to baptize, how to ordain, how to celebrate the Holy Bread and Sacred Chalice, etc.)

What the Holy Spirit had revealed to them after Pentecost.

So there can't be sola scriptura, OR Prima scriptura, because the new testament did not exist at the time of first apostles. Divine relevation in the Catholic World view, comes through, and is the church.

[jojoju1998]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

Actually there are prominent catholics who make the argument that the Catholic Tradition is far more tied into the Old Testament than people realize, especially regarding the Eucharist.

[jojoju1998]

Just an impression from an outsider, and it might be wrong, but my impression is that evangelicalism is more Biblicist and consequently more appreciative of the Old Testament heritage of Christianity than Eastern Orthodoxy or other non-Protestant branches. (This of course fed into the much maligned dispensationalism.) One might be more likely to hear a homily on Gregory Palamas at an Eastern Orthodox church, but I'd think one would be more likely to hear a sermon about the story of Bathsheba at an evangelical one. So to me it seems like depth of history is a matter of perspective. (It's also often said that evangelicals have a more intense reading and centring of the Gospel text itself than other denominations, but putting that to the side because it's a more controversial claim)

The more general point I think is that the history of Christianity is so long, it would be impossible for any church to assimilate it all equally. Each one has to choose a period as a point of emphasis. I remember reading somewhere that for EOs their conception of history is centred on the Nicene Fathers of the 4th century, Roman Catholics are centred on the 13th century and the Lateran Councils, and classical Protestants are centred on the 16th century and the Reformers. Each is a decision, and a decision that necessarily excludes parts of the history of Christianity at other times.

I certainly agree with you as far as European Protestants and the American Protestants that trace their heritage back to Europe (e.g., Lutherans, Anglicans, Presbyterians, etc.).  However, I do see a disturbing trend in many Evangelical churches (using that term in an exclusively American context here, to especially refer to Non-Denominational churches and newer "Revival" denominations like Pentecostals) where their adherents practically have an antagonism toward church history.  Baptists are a mixed bag, as some have a real appreciation for Church history (while putting less authority there, so to speak), while others do not.

If we look at seminary formation programs; even the mainline protestants are relatively getting sparse when it comes to their programs.

Compare Virginia Theological Seminary ( an Episcopalian Seminary ) with Mundelin Seminary ( a seminary of the Catholic Church.).


Mundelin seminary has mandated for seminarians, multiple classes on scripture, systematic theology, the doctrine of God, Moral theology, Mariology, Medical Ethics, Fundamental Theology, and this doesn't take into account, the two years of pre theology studies for any seminarian without a philisophy degree, so classes in Philosophy, Latin, Greek, et cetera. That's a whole 7 years.


Virginia Theological Seminary ? 3 vague classes on the historical witness and modern witness of the Church ( does it even count as systemic theology ? ) And 12 units in old and new testament intepretation. And 3 units on contextual ministry.


And courses on the doctrine of God, and other systemic theology courses are offered as electives.