McConnell wants to weaken filibuster

[YaBoyNY]

Nice use of Zionist as a snarl word. Yes, I do believe that the Jews should have a state...

Who cares?  Nobody deserves a state and they certainly don't deserve a state carved out of land where other people are living.  If everyone is treated the same most of Britain would have to decamp back to Germany and France and America would have to be emptied back to... everywhere.  "Jews should have a state" is 100% garbage.  Face it unless you are native American or some other type of person who traces their prehistoric roots back to a completely uninhabited land you should have a grand total of jacksh**t.  If you have a nice comfy home in Europe or the United States you should just thank god and move on with your life.  Well you can ask for your own country but no on is under any obligation Biblical or otherwise to provide it and certainly not at their expense nor at the expense of a small Palestinian child.

Well, tough.

The Jews are back where they originated, after every country in the world made very clear they either actively wanted us dead or just didn't care if we were wiped out. And they have roughly 300 nuclear weapons, as well. More than enough to wipe out any country that simply can't abide by Jews existing. So Israel is here to stay. Jews are here to stay.

This is the top-notic Zionist offense.

"We have nukes, and we don't really care about the rest of the world or our allies. We cannot be trusted with nuclear weapons ourselves, but we'll bitch and moan about how the Iranians don't deserve them."

It seems a fitting response to "You don't deserve safety in the diaspora, and you don't deserve a state of your own."

The only response to that is "Well, we took it. Deal with it."

Jews in the United States and Europe must be getting rounded up by the thousands and killed.

Oh, wait.

How much have you been paying attention to Europe over the last few years? They're being terrorized and attacked on a regular basis, and Neo-Nazi parties are rising in many nations.

As for the US, it's definitely one of the best countries in the world for Jews. I'm sure if the worst happened, they'd be willing to serve as a haven for - oh, wait. The last time that happened, they let six million die.

I've been paying attention far more than you. You're absolutely out of your mind if you think Jews in Europe are in any more danger than, say, blacks in the U.S.

Yeah. Everybody just sat there and let six million die. That's exactly what happened. Man, Zionist revisionism is crazy.

[Torie]

Nice use of Zionist as a snarl word. Yes, I do believe that the Jews should have a state...

Who cares?  Nobody deserves a state and they certainly don't deserve a state carved out of land where other people are living.  If everyone is treated the same most of Britain would have to decamp back to Germany and France and America would have to be emptied back to... everywhere.  "Jews should have a state" is 100% garbage.  Face it unless you are native American or some other type of person who traces their prehistoric roots back to a completely uninhabited land you should have a grand total of jacksh**t.  If you have a nice comfy home in Europe or the United States you should just thank god and move on with your life.  Well you can ask for your own country but no on is under any obligation Biblical or otherwise to provide it and certainly not at their expense nor at the expense of a small Palestinian child.

Well, tough.

The Jews are back where they originated, after every country in the world made very clear they either actively wanted us dead or just didn't care if we were wiped out. And they have roughly 300 nuclear weapons, as well. More than enough to wipe out any country that simply can't abide by Jews existing. So Israel is here to stay. Jews are here to stay.

This is the top-notic Zionist offense.

"We have nukes, and we don't really care about the rest of the world or our allies. We cannot be trusted with nuclear weapons ourselves, but we'll bitch and moan about how the Iranians don't deserve them."

It seems a fitting response to "You don't deserve safety in the diaspora, and you don't deserve a state of your own."

The only response to that is "Well, we took it. Deal with it."

Jews in the United States and Europe must be getting rounded up by the thousands and killed.

Oh, wait.

How much have you been paying attention to Europe over the last few years? They're being terrorized and attacked on a regular basis, and Neo-Nazi parties are rising in many nations.

As for the US, it's definitely one of the best countries in the world for Jews. I'm sure if the worst happened, they'd be willing to serve as a haven for - oh, wait. The last time that happened, they let six million die.

Oh really?  We "let" 6 million die? The full consequences of the Holocaust were not known until late in the war.  What would you have done to save those in the concentration campus if you were Roosevelt? Your comments are extremely disrespectful.  You do realize hundreds of thousands of Americans died fighting the Nazis, right?  

Yes, I do. The Allies defeated Hitler for the sake of global security.

However, FDR did not do a thing to prevent or mitigate the effects of the Holocaust. He refused to target the death camp infrastructure. He refused to allow refugees to settle in the US.

And it's not true that the full scope of the Holocaust wasn't known. Jewish groups were working overtime to make people aware of the facts. Mainstream media didn't cover it. The leaders were turned away at the white house. People had other priorities, and six million died.

Yes, having watched a very good documentary on this on Netflix, the US attitude about saving Jews when it was possible to save many of them, was disappointing - to put it mildly. The sad truth is that being anti-Jew was socially acceptable back then among the WASP ruling class, which did rule back then, particularly when it came to foreign policy. My tribe in this aspect back then really quite repels me. Thank heavens those days are largely over. The one man who was a real hero during all of this was Winston Churchill. But then he represented at one point a heavily Jewish constituency in Manchester at one point, so he got to know many, and liked and empathized with them, in a way Roosevelt at that point never had. And after the war, the US was equally callous for too long a period.

If I had been Jewish, I would have done what the Jews did after WWII to secure a state. Among other things, a couple of hundred thousand Jews were essentially stateless, with nowhere to go really. The US among other nations, had a pathetically parsimonious quota about Jewish immigration. Disgusting really. And the first nation to propose in the UN that a Jewish state be carved out of a part of Palestine was the Soviet Union, yes the Soviet Union, not the US.

And it's quite horrifying, that in some quarters, being anti-Jew is becoming more socially acceptable again. It does remind one that a Jewish state is in fact really necessary.

[tpfkaw]

As for the US, it's definitely one of the best countries in the world for Jews. I'm sure if the worst happened, they'd be willing to serve as a haven for - oh, wait. The last time that happened, they let six million die.

Nobody knew at the time that was going to happen, including the European Jews themselves. If they did quite a few more would've gone to countries that didn't limit or even encouraged Jewish immigration, like Spain, the Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Japanese-occupied Manchuria, or for that matter the Soviet Union.

Also, your line of argument in this thread is really great for testing whatever sympathy people have for Israel. I wonder if you're a Palestinian troll.

[Torie]

As for the US, it's definitely one of the best countries in the world for Jews. I'm sure if the worst happened, they'd be willing to serve as a haven for - oh, wait. The last time that happened, they let six million die.

Nobody knew at the time that was going to happen, including the European Jews themselves. If they did quite a few more would've gone to countries that didn't limit or even encouraged Jewish immigration, like Spain, the Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Japanese-occupied Manchuria, or for that matter the Soviet Union.

Also, your line of argument in this thread is really great for testing whatever sympathy people have for Israel. I wonder if you're a Palestinian troll.

The ruling class in the US was well aware that Nazi Germany was stripping Jews of all of their rights, including citizenship, and treated them like dogs (well far worse then dogs, more like rats with bubonic plague). Did the US open its doors to Jewish immigration during the 1936 through 1938 period, while it was still possible for Jews to get out? No. And the same policy was in place after WWII ended, with 200,000 or so stateless Jews wandering around, and locked up in camps essentially. The US ruling class running the US in government was also well aware of the death camps, and did nothing to interfere with the efficient processing of exterminating Jews, like bombing the camps, and taking them out, and the rails that went to them. If that is not shocking to the conscience, I don't know what is.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Nice use of Zionist as a snarl word. Yes, I do believe that the Jews should have a state...

Who cares?  Nobody deserves a state and they certainly don't deserve a state carved out of land where other people are living.  If everyone is treated the same most of Britain would have to decamp back to Germany and France and America would have to be emptied back to... everywhere.  "Jews should have a state" is 100% garbage.  Face it unless you are native American or some other type of person who traces their prehistoric roots back to a completely uninhabited land you should have a grand total of jacksh**t.  If you have a nice comfy home in Europe or the United States you should just thank god and move on with your life.  Well you can ask for your own country but no on is under any obligation Biblical or otherwise to provide it and certainly not at their expense nor at the expense of a small Palestinian child.

Well, tough.

The Jews are back where they originated, after every country in the world made very clear they either actively wanted us dead or just didn't care if we were wiped out. And they have roughly 300 nuclear weapons, as well. More than enough to wipe out any country that simply can't abide by Jews existing. So Israel is here to stay. Jews are here to stay.

How delightfully barbaric.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

As for the US, it's definitely one of the best countries in the world for Jews. I'm sure if the worst happened, they'd be willing to serve as a haven for - oh, wait. The last time that happened, they let six million die.

Nobody knew at the time that was going to happen, including the European Jews themselves. If they did quite a few more would've gone to countries that didn't limit or even encouraged Jewish immigration, like Spain, the Dominican Republic, Bolivia, Japanese-occupied Manchuria, or for that matter the Soviet Union.

Also, your line of argument in this thread is really great for testing whatever sympathy people have for Israel. I wonder if you're a Palestinian troll.

The ruling class in the US was well aware that Nazi Germany was stripping Jews of all of their rights, including citizenship, and treated them like dogs (well far worse then dogs, more like rats with bubonic plague). Did the US open its doors to Jewish immigration during the 1936 through 1938 period, while it was still possible for Jews to get out? No. And the same policy was in place after WWII ended, with 200,000 or so stateless Jews wandering around, and locked up in camps essentially. If that is not shocking to the conscience, I don't know what is.

You are right.  In 1936 Jews were the only people who suffered in the world or had atrocities committed towards them.  In fact it is too bad Jews didn't have it as good as blacks right here in America... or for that matter blacks living "free" in capitalistic Cuba before the deplorable Castro brothers took over.



Have you seen what they do to Jews...

[Simfan34]

How did this thread become about Israel?

[Taco Truck 🚚]

How did this thread become about Israel?

All roads lead to Jerusalem now.

The hell didn't you do this when the Democrats blocked literally the most significant piece of legislation to come through Congress in the last decade?

What piece of legislation is that exactly?

Apparently the Zionist means the resolution of disapproval for the Iran deal.

[Torie]

Yes, the US had other moral flaws at the time, of which we should be ashamed. Correct.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

Yes, the US had other moral flaws at the time, of which we should be ashamed. Correct.

Well except that last picture of an unarmed black man being gunned down in the streets was from earlier this year.

Which African nation are we sending billions to each year to make up for the 12 year old unarmed boys we execute?

When was the last time an unarmed Jew was shot in the back on tape by a policeman in the United States over some missed child support payments?

I am just growing sick and tired of having BILLIONS a year extracted from hard working tax payers to give to some country that insults our president, brazenly spies on us, and gets us entangled in one mess after another.  We have ZERO obligation to give Israel one more penny.  They need to get to the back of the line and we need to focus on all the other groups we've ignored for decades.  I am just getting fed up with this forgone conclusion that we owe Israel or that we are obligated to be their servants.  There are native Americans suffering right here at home.

[Torie]

What financial assistance, and in what form (most of it seems to be about arms purchases from the US with loan guarantees), should be extended by the US to Israel, at this point in time, is an entirely different issue, which should be decided on its own merits. The amount of money involved in the larger scheme of things, is relatively small. But yes, Israel is in a much better position now than at prior points in time, to pay its own way.

[DavidB.]

Yes, I do. The Allies defeated Hitler for the sake of global security.

However, FDR did not do a thing to prevent or mitigate the effects of the Holocaust. He refused to target the death camp infrastructure. He refused to allow refugees to settle in the US.

And it's not true that the full scope of the Holocaust wasn't known. Jewish groups were working overtime to make people aware of the facts. Mainstream media didn't cover it. The leaders were turned away at the white house. People had other priorities, and six million died.

You're of course right, but human garbage like Schadenfreude will successfully find excuses to advocate anti-Jewish nonsense anyway, so I put him on ignore. The people who basically use the "Wir haben es nicht gewußt" argument in this thread are really embarrassing themselves, since FDR did know about the risks of sending Jews back to Europe when they went to the US on boats, he did know what would happen when he failed to bomb the railways to the death camps; Torie and RubRep are right on the money in that sense.

What's more, this entire debate isn't really about US money. I'm all for phasing out US "aid" to Israel because it would decolonize us, it would free us from the burden that makes Israeli political leaders mentally dependent on the US, whereas the entire lesson of all of Jewish history is that Jews shouldn't rely on others when it comes to survival. However, this debate isn't about financial support, it's really about moral and political support, and generally, the ones who advocate an end to US aid to Israel also want to end the US' moral and political support to Israel (but they don't say that), which is why their argument isn't intellectually honest. What's more, US support of Israel does not only stem from interests (even though these are clearly important in reality) but also from the values our countries share.

Both countries need to change things. 1) Israel shouldn't get money from the US on a structural basis. 2) The US should respect Israel's dealing with its domestic problems, and the fact that Obama is constantly trying to exert his influence on Israeli politics (even on the outcome of the elections, by funnelling money into Netanyahu's main opponent's campaign - I am not a supporter of Netanyahu's party yet I find this to be outrageous) is not okay. Israel and the US (a country I, let no mistake arise from this, absolutely admire - I don't like this administration but I love America) should work together as equals. The main problem isn't US aid, it's the US trying to micromanage Israel and Israel being too dependent on the US. However, I'm more critical of the US' behavior in this regard, because Israel's (and my people's) existence is continuously on the line whereas the US' isn't.

[Orser67]

How did this thread become about Israel?

Anyway...

McConnell's talking about killing the "motion to proceed," which is different from the "motion to end debate." From what I understand, requiring a 60 vote majority for "motions to proceed" merely slows down the work of the Senate. It's the "motion to end debate" which sets up votes. So this seems like a good idea to me. Even if you think that 60 votes should be required to vote on legislation, I don't think that 60 votes should be required just to have a debate.

This reform and the 2013 reform would leave the filibuster in place only for "motions to end debate" on legislation and Supreme Court nominees. I have mixed feelings about keeping in place the filibuster, but if it's going to remain, it should only be to require a super-majority for legislation and Supreme Court nominees.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Both countries need to change things. 1) Israel shouldn't get money from the US on a structural basis. 2) The US should respect Israel's dealing with its domestic problems, and the fact that Obama is constantly trying to exert his influence on Israeli politics (even on the outcome of the elections, by funnelling money into Netanyahu's main opponent's campaign - I am not a supporter of Netanyahu's party yet I find this to be outrageous) is not okay. Israel and the US (a country I, let no mistake arise from this, absolutely admire - I don't like this administration but I love America) should work together as equals. The main problem isn't US aid, it's the US trying to micromanage Israel and Israel being too dependent on the US. However, I'm more critical of the US' behavior in this regard, because Israel's (and my people's) existence is continuously on the line whereas the US' isn't.

Wow! You have some serious delusions dude.

[Taco Truck 🚚]

You're of course right, but human garbage like Schadenfreude...

Now we see who we are dealing with.  Suggesting Jews should be treated like everyone else makes you "human garbage."

Which country that we are currently not conducting a war in gets as much foreign aid as Israel?  So Hitler doesn't follow the rules and abuses Jews so that means for the rest of time Jews can abuse anyone they want?

[DavidB.]

Both countries need to change things. 1) Israel shouldn't get money from the US on a structural basis. 2) The US should respect Israel's dealing with its domestic problems, and the fact that Obama is constantly trying to exert his influence on Israeli politics (even on the outcome of the elections, by funnelling money into Netanyahu's main opponent's campaign - I am not a supporter of Netanyahu's party yet I find this to be outrageous) is not okay. Israel and the US (a country I, let no mistake arise from this, absolutely admire - I don't like this administration but I love America) should work together as equals. The main problem isn't US aid, it's the US trying to micromanage Israel and Israel being too dependent on the US. However, I'm more critical of the US' behavior in this regard, because Israel's (and my people's) existence is continuously on the line whereas the US' isn't.

Wow! You have some serious delusions dude.

And you have some debts to pay me, dude!

[Landslide Lyndon]

Both countries need to change things. 1) Israel shouldn't get money from the US on a structural basis. 2) The US should respect Israel's dealing with its domestic problems, and the fact that Obama is constantly trying to exert his influence on Israeli politics (even on the outcome of the elections, by funnelling money into Netanyahu's main opponent's campaign - I am not a supporter of Netanyahu's party yet I find this to be outrageous) is not okay. Israel and the US (a country I, let no mistake arise from this, absolutely admire - I don't like this administration but I love America) should work together as equals. The main problem isn't US aid, it's the US trying to micromanage Israel and Israel being too dependent on the US. However, I'm more critical of the US' behavior in this regard, because Israel's (and my people's) existence is continuously on the line whereas the US' isn't.

Wow! You have some serious delusions dude.

And you have some debts to pay me, dude!

Yeah, whatever. The doctor said to agree with everything you say.

[DavidB.]

Yeah, whatever. The doctor said to agree with everything you say.

Nah, it's not the doctor but Merkel who said that. And your lousy Prime Minister complied, so your welfare from my money is soon going to end

[Landslide Lyndon]

Yeah, whatever. The doctor said to agree with everything you say.

Nah, it's not the doctor but Merkel who said that. And your lousy Prime Minister complied, so your welfare from my money is soon going to end

Sure, sure. Now take your pills and a glass of milk and go back to bed.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

So when he's in minority again in 2017, when immigration reform comes up, he vow would want to change his mind on this. But filibuster need further reform not loosened.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Good news. This is going to benefit Democrats in the long run.

[Badger]

Enough flame war and debating about Zionism / Israel. Anymore and I will have to lock the thread. Thank you.