Are Mormon's Christians?

[angus]

Ah, , I've been quoted.  May as well put it back up there:

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[angus]

Hey I tried to type the word .  but it didn't appear.  did you notice that?

that's weird.

[angus]

They certainly are not Protestants, though.

correct.  and they're very quick to point that out if you should ever attempt to group them with protestants, all of which suggests they probably deserve a separate, fourth, categorization outside the usual Catholic (Eastern or Roman), Protestant (Evangelical or Mainline), and Copt (qibt) groupings within Christianity.

FYI:  for the interested biblical scholars among you, Discovery Channel is doing "Ramses:  Wrath of God" just now.  It's narrated by award winning actor and Hospitality State native Morgan Freeman, and will examine the ten plagues and Moses, and Ramses, and historical and archaeological bases of parts of the Hebrew mythology.  Very interesting so far. 

Freeman:  "Ramses was awed by the god of moses"

sounds like Hebrew nationalistic hubris, no?  Well, the heiroglyphs seem actually to bear that out.  Of course, Ramses did not consider himself a child of lesser gods, but no doubt he was shocked and awed by Yahweh.

Man, it must have been interesting to live in the times before Newton, Darwin, Einstein, and Thales of Miletus.  What interesting tales did explain nature.  Science is fascinating, but rather dry compared to mythological explanations of natural phenomena I think.  Note:  there's another two-hour Egypt special following this one.

ooh, now Freeman is questioning whether Ramses was even the pharoah mentioned in the monotheists' texts.  What this? 



an off-topic followup:  (during a commercial break.  which reminds me that when I lived for a year in Germany and worked for a month in Amsterdam the commercials do not interrupt shows.  no kidding.  it sucks.  you have to hold your pee, or whatever you want to say for hours.  If you're ever in Germany or Holland, take a good long piss, and eat well, before settling in for a long television program.  Luckily I live in the land of the two-minute break every fifteen minutes.  All the countries I've visited in Latin American do commercial breaks the American way, so you're okay there.  Pop a top of cheap beer and watch the show with impunity.)

According to Rabbi Mark Winer, much of the misconception arises from an ancient mistranslation.  These things happen, I can assure you, and I have been guilty of accidental but well-intended mistranslations myself.  It turns out that the "Red Sea" in the book of Exodus should have actually referred to the "Reed Sea"  Probably this refers to the marshy area in the northeast of Egypt. In the Nile Delta.  Parting of the Red Sea?  Well, according to two Oxford and one Liverpool historians, there were probably around 600, and not thousands, of egyptians handling their thousands of Hebrew slaves.  So Egyptian chariots attempt to cross the marshy swamps and of course they are swallowed by the marshes.  (Think of trying to drive your Toyota south of IH 10 in Louisiana, while drunk.  And trying to handle 9 or 10 slaves at the same time.  Of course you're going to think of some interesting story to tell the insurance claims adjustor.  Okay, I'm adding that last metaphor.  That's not Freeman talking.)  Anyway it's not such a stretch to imagine that in the swamps, Moses' people probably killed several thousand armed slaves killed their captors.  Thus Ramses son was not killed by the "Hand of God" but rather by the "Hand of Man" according to whomever wrote Freeman's lines.  Also, skeletal remains of the guy buried in Ramses son's tomb do not seem to be related to Ramses.  Of course the data is sketchy at best.  And of course the archaelogical and historical explanation of events is rather dry compared to the mythological monotheistic one.  Some questions are best left unasked, if only for the sake of good literature.  Don't you think?

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[angus]

Most programs here have long commercial breaks every half hour.

Interesting to know Alberta is like that.  I've never been there.

Just kidding.  Yeah, my parenthetical rant was a bit of an exaggeration.  The first thing you notice in a place like Germany is that you have to sit through a rerun of "Hogan's Heroes" in its entirety without a break.  Seems annoying.  But obviously during a two-hour movie there are breaks.  At least in the parts of Germany and Netherland I have lived in.

I can't remember how they do it in Canada.  Even though it's our second-closest neighboring country, and I have been there many times, I can't remember paying much attention to what's on TV there.  But this is a bit off topic.  I just thought it was interesting the way you interjected immediately that Mormons are not prots.  I found that on more than one occassion the hard way as well, and have been excoriated by mormons for grouping them thusly.  "Hey, man, we're not protesting anything!  Got that?"  Er, okay, I can see why you people shun caffeine.  Clearly you don't need it.

[angus]

I've never been excoriated by a Methodist, or any other mainline protestant, for using the word Protestant to label their flavor of Christianity.  Let's be clear, the several times I have been corrected by Mormons did not originate because I claimed that their brand of religion originated in the Reformation.  Because I made no such claim.  Nor do I claim now that Methodism was founded by Luther or Calvin or a frustrated English king.  Nevertheless, based on what I understand of the two major flavors of Protestantism, Methodism seems like a good fit within mainline protestantism.  Moreover, in the broader context, I agree that grouping Mormons with Protestants isn't really valid.  As I have stated, I do own a hardbound version of the Book of Mormon, and have read parts of it.  I am aware that Jesus visited the Americas, for example, and I understand a little about the history and move Westward by Joseph Smith from Illinois to Utah.  Note also that mormons call non-mormons "gentiles"  I am also familiar with the Mormon seven levels of heaven, and the human spirit's free choice of incarnation, both in terms of time and place.  This is neither catholocism nor protestantism as far as I can tell.  (Those two groups discriminate, chiefly, on the issue of whether 7 books of early Christian writings from the Alexandria collection are sufficiently canonical to be included with the other books of the Old Testament.  You know, those crazy Hellenistic Jews and their Greek text instead of Hebrew.  But Mormon textual additions go far beyond this minor difference, I can assure you.)  Though, as I stated, I'm no religious scholar, and beyond the superficial and historical aspects I've noted here, I think you'll have to read the Book of Mormon and decide for yourself whether you want to call them Protestant.  But take my caveat seriously:  they don't like it, and they'll let you know it very quickly and very clearly. 

[angus]

I totally disagree, and have provided you with what I see as their primary discriminating factor.  I may have referred to it as a "minor" difference, but I think the difference is HUGE to practicing catholics and protestants.  Note that either way, the textual difference between catholics and protestants is still minor with respect to the big textual difference between those to groups on one hand, and Mormons on the other.  But this is just my take.  But I will say that a perusal of the long discussions between say Supersoulty and jmfcst will confirm that observant Catholics and Protestants put quite a bit of stock in the minor difference.  And again, Mormons are neither.  They are, however, Christians, and I'm surprised at Jeff, who is usually well versed in history, but who somehow is convinced that they aren't "real" Christians.

[angus]

it's okay Lewis, we're on the same page.  I know where you live.

I was picking on the fact that you change avatars more often than I change underwear.  That reminds me, it's Sunday.  Shower day and clean underwear day.  You know, I like to start off the week with that fresh feeling.

I'd forgotten that there is a pattern behind your avatar changes though, and the Canada one makes sense, except that your choice of provinces eludes me.

[angus]

Ah, makes sense.  You were OR-green for a long time at first, as I recall.  And I think I said something about going up to Crater Lake, which was a few hours north of home at the time, and then you started putting something about being from Frankfurt in your sig (maybe so that wouldn't happen so often.)

Conjoint twins are never delivered vaginally I just learned on TLC.  Always C-sections.