Snowden thread

[Leftbehind]

True, but considering that national elections are coming up the government probably wanted to go 100% sure and still check the plane for Snowden after Morales offered the vountary check.

If we didn't check the plane and in the event that Snowden was really in the plane on the way to Bolivia, we would then have the blame on us: "Why didn't those Austrians look into the plane ?", or if Snowden went out of the plane at the airport we would now be drawn into a complicated international situation, just 3 months before the election.

Because that'd mean grounding and inspecting a plane of a foreign president based on nothing? Austria would be 'drawn in to a complicated international situation' by letting a foreign president go about his international travel without presuming he's smuggling someone back, who isn't even wanted in the country in question?

Can only agree with Antonio and andi, Europe being good little poodles as usual.

[Franknburger]

The debate is taking pretty interesting turns here in Germany (remember its election campaign time):
On one hand, it is being asked (e.g. by SPD head Gabriel in an Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung op-ed), whether Merkel was not informed in advance, or at least knew that NSA was intercepting telephone and internet traffic in Germany. A point in case is that several captures of Islamist groups in Germany took place on NSA hints, which were allegedly based on intercepted telephone talks. [Note that such interception is illegal in Germany unless ordered by a court].

On the other hand, the opposition asks how come such spying was carried out without German counter-intelligence taking notice, which would be a massive failure of these services. A special meeting of the parliamentary intelligence committee has been summoned to question the Head of German counter-intelligence.

In the meantime, Minister of Interior Friedrich, while otherwise widely refraining from giving any information or statements, has recommended, German citizens afraid of being spied on by the USA should route their e-mail traffic via German servers. Friedrich is more and more coming under criticism even from his own side, including Hessen's CDU Minister of Interior (himself facing a state election in September) and several senior FDP politicians.

[Lief 🗽]

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

Austria is a neutral country and the amount of attention being paid to Snowden is ridiculous even one does assume he did something wrong, Lief.

[Tender Branson]

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

Austria is a neutral country and the amount of attention being paid to Snowden is ridiculous even one does assume he did something wrong, Lief.

Semi-neutral I should say. We de-facto gave up our neutrality when entering the EU in 1995.

Switzerland is neutral, we are not.

[Franknburger]

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

You mean, like the NSA guys who bugged the Italian, Spanish and Greek embassies? Yeah, such United states help would be a great sign of cooperating with its allies ..

[Velasco]

True, but considering that national elections are coming up the government probably wanted to go 100% sure and still check the plane for Snowden after Morales offered the voluntary check.

If we didn't check the plane and in the event that Snowden was really in the plane on the way to Bolivia, we would then have the blame on us: "Why didn't those Austrians look into the plane ?", or if Snowden went out of the plane at the airport we would now be drawn into a complicated international situation, just 3 months before the election.

Because that'd mean grounding and inspecting a plane of a foreign president based on nothing? Austria would be 'drawn in to a complicated international situation' by letting a foreign president go about his international travel without presuming he's smuggling someone back, who isn't even wanted in the country in question?

Registering a presidential plane goes against all the agreements and the rules of the international diplomacy. I doubt that Snowden's issue has enough importance as to justify the intolerable and unprecedented treatment granted to Evo Morales. On the other hand, the US government has washed his hands with regard to the closing of air spaces, stating that it's an unilateral measure. All Latin-American chancelleries reacted with anger in solidarity with Morales and the rest of the world is aware of Europe's subordination. Even Chirac showed more dignity in the past than Hollande yesterday. It doesn't compensate going so far to keep the American friend satisfied and it will be a loss of prestige for Europe.

[Tender Branson]

The EU Parliament has just rejected asylum for Snowden by a vote of 482 against and 114 for.

https://twitter.com/mehrenhauser/status/352731260893937664

[Lief 🗽]

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

Austria is a neutral country and the amount of attention being paid to Snowden is ridiculous even one does assume he did something wrong, Lief.

Yeah, and we're not asking them to go to war with anyone. Just because they're "neutral" (not really) doesn't mean they're isolationist. We still have an extradition treaty with them, we still cooperate and are friendly with them.

Wow, I thought the countries of Western Europe were friends and allies of the United States. Suddenly helping us catch a fugitive guilty of espionage is some act of supreme cowardice and spinelessness?? Ridiculous. I would hope and expect the United States to do the same if a German or Austrian or Italian or whatever criminal on the run was possibly flying through American airspace. 

You mean, like the NSA guys who bugged the Italian, Spanish and Greek embassies? Yeah, such United states help would be a great sign of cooperating with its allies ..

All countries spy on each other, even allies. The United States would (or should at least) still help them catch a high-profile criminal if he were in the country.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Not to the point of grounding a head of state's plane over a suspicion without evidence regarding a victimless if irritating crime, I should hope.

[Lief 🗽]

Not to the point of grounding a head of state's plane over a suspicion without evidence regarding a victimless if irritating crime, I should hope.

Well, yeah, that's obviously ridiculous. But I've read plenty of people (not necessarily all on this website) calling Germany or other European countries spineless lapdogs because they're refusing to grant a criminal asylum and helping the United States catch him.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Snowden is a "criminal", just like pot users in most places are. He's also as dangerous and has hurt as many people as your average pot smoker.

[Lief 🗽]

No, what he did is much more serious that smoking pot.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He didn't hurt anyone. Other countries aren't acting like this over Roman Polanski who did something far worse.

[windjammer]

I don't understand this sympathy toward him. He should be arrested. He's a traitor.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I don't understand this sympathy toward him. He should be arrested. He's a traitor.

Treason is betraying a whole country. He only betrayed a government.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

He didn't betray anyone.

[windjammer]

I don't understand this sympathy toward him. He should be arrested. He's a traitor.

Treason is betraying a whole country. He only betrayed a government.

I'm sorry but I don't understand!

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Was Claus von Stauffenberg a traitor?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

An example of an actual traitor would be Oliver North.

[windjammer]

Was Claus von Stauffenberg a traitor?

For the nazis: yes. For humanity: a hero!

[Blue3]

Anna Chapman (the Russian spy who looks like a model) proposes marriage to Snowden :
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/news/ex-russian-spy-anna-chapman-proposes-marriage-edward-171009157.html

France has been doing the same thing as the US:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/04/france-spying_n_3546226.html

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Great job Obama, getting half of South America pissed at you for your attempts to get some guy who said things you don't like.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

An example of an actual traitor would be Oliver North.

Or Dick Cheney.

[Middle-aged Europe]

On one hand, it is being asked (e.g. by SPD head Gabriel in an Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung op-ed), whether Merkel was not informed in advance, or at least knew that NSA was intercepting telephone and internet traffic in Germany.

Gabriel also decided to turn it up to eleven and basically contemplated charging Keith Alexander with espionage (guess the US won't extradite the good General any time soon) and granting Edward Snowden witness protection in Germany (an idea first floated by Ströbele yesterday or the day before that).