Poll: Support for gay marriage up among Catholics

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

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Salon

[DC Al Fine]

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Salon
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These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

[7,052,770]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.
[/quote]

"No true Scotsman"

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well it's a bit of a good point, do Catholic churches where almost 100% of congregants support gay marriage exist? They certainly do for other denominations, including some evangelical churches.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Well it's a bit of a good point, do Catholic churches where almost 100% of congregants support gay marriage exist? They certainly do for other denominations, including some evangelical churches.

How big are those churches compared to the typical Catholic congregation?

[memphis]

Well it's a bit of a good point, do Catholic churches where almost 100% of congregants support gay marriage exist? They certainly do for other denominations, including some evangelical churches.

There's obviously a lot more self selection amongst members of Protestant churches. 100% is also an extremely high threshold.  You can't get 100% of a population to agree on anything.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Well it's a bit of a good point, do Catholic churches where almost 100% of congregants support gay marriage exist? They certainly do for other denominations, including some evangelical churches.

You could probably get somewhat close to that in New York or Massachusetts.

[7,052,770]

I wonder what % of Catholic priests support gay marriage.  My guess is around 70%.

[DC Al Fine]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"
[/quote]

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.

[All Along The Watchtower]

I'd wonder what the percentage of Catholics who support gay marriage is among the following groups:

All Catholics who attend Mass regularly
White Catholics who attend Mass regularly
White male Catholics who attend Mass regularly
White female Catholics who attend Mass regularly
Latino Catholics who attend Mass regularly

etc.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.
[/quote]

Do you consider going to church every Sunday the only condition for living life religiously?

[DC Al Fine]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.

Do you consider going to church every Sunday the only condition for living life religiously?
[/quote]

No. Counter question: Which do you think is greater in number: Catholics who don't go to mass and are fervently religious or Catholics who don't go to mass and aren't very religious?

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.

Do you consider going to church every Sunday the only condition for living life religiously?

No. Counter question: Which do you think is greater in number: Catholics who don't go to mass and are fervently religious or Catholics who don't go to mass and aren't very religious?
[/quote]

That question is impossible to answer because I have no knowledge of how 'religious' or 'irreligious' a Catholic who doesn't regularly attend church is, perhaps because I believe it is possible for someone to lead a faithful life without church attendance being a major aspect of it for one reason or another.  One's religiosity can only be determined by the individual.

Regardless, I don't see what relevance this bears to the poll itself.  I think the result is significant whether you count active churchgoing Catholics or not.

[DC Al Fine]

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.

Do you consider going to church every Sunday the only condition for living life religiously?

No. Counter question: Which do you think is greater in number: Catholics who don't go to mass and are fervently religious or Catholics who don't go to mass and aren't very religious?

That question is impossible to answer because I have no knowledge of how 'religious' or 'irreligious' a Catholic who doesn't regularly attend church is, perhaps because I believe it is possible for someone to lead a faithful life without church attendance being a major aspect of it for one reason or another.  One's religiosity can only be determined by the individual.

Regardless, I don't see what relevance this bears to the poll itself.  I think the result is significant whether you count active churchgoing Catholics or not.
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I'd agree with you in a micro sense. However my experience has been that in aggregate, most non-attending people will tend to be irreligious. There are certainly individuals who are faithful, but if you start quizzing the non-attenders, I'd be surprised if even a decent minority of them believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The poll is definitely significant. What frustrates me is that unlike evangelicals, there isn't a clean break between the believers and the ex-believers of Catholicism, so polling "Catholics" tends to get a muddled view of two very different groups.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Well it's a bit of a good point, do Catholic churches where almost 100% of congregants support gay marriage exist? They certainly do for other denominations, including some evangelical churches.

There's obviously a lot more self selection amongst members of Protestant churches. 100% is also an extremely high threshold.  You can't get 100% of a population to agree on anything.

That's why I said "almost 100%". There's one (evangelical) church here that I can guarantee is close to 100% though since one of the pastors is gay and the lead pastor makes talking about supporting gay marriage probably the main thing he talks about. But let's set the bar then at a more attainable, say 80%.

I wonder what % of Catholic priests support gay marriage.  My guess is around 70%.

Uh, that's probably a good estimate for the percentage of mainline clergy who support gay marriage, but certainly not a group that's almost all olds or in this day coming from the third world. I will point out that there is only one priest here (and I have given him credit for it) who came out against the archbishop's fervent anti-gay marriage/pro-amendment ban campaign and refused to endorse it. He's profiled and interviewed here and here it covers him asking the archbishop to step down. But that's ONE priest in the entire Twin Cities archdiocese.

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Salon

These polls mean more when they poll actual mass attending Catholics, not people who identify as Catholic. There's a huge difference between the groups.

"No true Scotsman"

If you haven't gone to mass in 20 years and live your life completely irreligiously, you are not a Catholic in any meaningful way. Polls of mass attending Catholics show what the believers think. Polls of people who identify as Catholic are better for figuring out what people from Ireland/Italy/Poland/Mexico think.

Do you consider going to church every Sunday the only condition for living life religiously?[/quote]

Of course not. The problem is that the Catholic church does mandate Mass attendance unless one can't make it for a legitimate reason and holds that if someone does miss Mass for another reason they can't receive communion until they go to confession. So such a person is clearly not being much of a Catholic. Maybe they can still be a fervent Christian, but clearly not a Catholic. That's a point I've been making for awhile, a lot of these "cafeteria Catholics" have basically nothing theologically in common with the church and no beliefs that would identify them clearly as Catholic. Christian perhaps, but not Catholic.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

BTW I should clarify above, there's a huge difference between disagreeing with the Catholic Church on issues like abortion, birth control and gay marriage, which are issues the church feels pretty fervent about but are still largely political ones, and theological ones like the Immaculate Conception, transubstantiation, role of confession and the sacraments, etc. Because those are the things that actually define the church as what it is and separate it from the rest of Christianity. If you deny those, what makes you a Catholic and closer to that church than most Protestant denominations? It's like being a "Christian" who denies the divinity of Jesus or a "Muslim" who denies the prophethood of Mohammad. At some point a line has to be drawn or Catholic becomes a meaningless designation. This is largely what I think DC Al Fine is saying and I tend to agree with him.