Ukraine:more than 750 Ukrainian soldiers killed. Poroshenko invites NATO officia

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

[Beet]

Putin is engaging in a naked war of conquest. I don't think anything Poroshenko could have done or can do can stop Russia from attacking his country. At this point, the West has to decide whether good relations with Putin is worth doing business with an oppressive, dishonest regime that violates international law in the most blatant way possible to expand its borders, has killed 5,000 people so far including innocent E.U. Civilians, and and throwing Ukraine to the bear. I don't know why Europe loves Russia so much, to be honest.

This is so mindblowing stupid, that I really don't get why a people with a functioning brain like you could even write it.

It is? Because just last week Mogherini was in a meeting about how to lift sanctions on Russia? The September cease fire has never been implemented and yet EU leaders four months later are still acting like its imminent. Wishful thinking. Putin sees this sort of thing and knows he can get away with another offensive - and he's right.

It have nothing to do with loving Russia

Fair enough, but I don't see how anyone can blame Poroshenko for defending his country.

You can blame him for being incompetent, which is what he has been blamed for in this thread.

No amount of competence in the world can save his country from being squashed under an imperial invader. He could be Winston Churchill but Russia's superior military might would still roll over him. That's the point here. You could take him out right now and shoot him dead and Ukraine would be no better off as long as Putin is determined to widen this war. Why can't we train our rhetorical firepower against the man who is really responsible for this, for once? You won't fight him, you won't seriously sanction him, can we at least speak against him here using our words on Atlas Forum? No, I won't blame Poroshenko. I will blame Putin, because he is the instigator of this. Period.

How much is you willing to sacrifise for Ukraine? This is not a criticism, it's a question. EU could bring full blown sanctions on Russia, closing down the gas trade. But the result in the very short term would be thousands of dead Europeans (not Danes of course) and in a slighter longer short term, a major recession not just for Europe but for the world. Are the Ukrainian government worth 5 year more of a slugging economy?

How much to sacrifice for all of Ukraine? That's from Sloviansk to Lviv. If you're willing to sacrifice all of that, do you think Putin does not see it? If you are willing to sacrifice all that, then he will take it. How many Europeans (including Ukrainians and Russians of course) have already died in this war? How many do you think will continue to die as Putin continues on with this war and slowly takes more cities? The longer this goes on, do you think more will die, or fewer? And I'd Putin takes all of Ukraine, do you think he will stop there? What about the rest of the former Soview Union? And then the Baltic states? Do you think the options you will face then will be easier than the ones you have now?

No one has called for Europe to stop all gas shipments from Russia. Serious sanctions would be, the same as what has already been imposed except for an indefinite term so they will only be lifted when Russia pulls back on the ground, and and not something that automatically expires after just one year. A clear plan to automatically escalate sanctions if Putin continues to attack, as well as de-escalate if he pulls back. Eject Russia from SWIFT. Iran had been ejected from SWIFT merely for building a domestic nuclear program. Russia is attacking another country, which is far worse.

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This is hyperbole. European economic troubles are more related to the Euro than Russia. It's economy will be fine without Russia. 10 years ago Europe did almost no business with Russia and its economy was just as rich as it is now, if not more so. EU exports to Russia are just 6.8 percent of total EU exports and 1.2 percent of its GDP. Talk of "economic suicide" or "collapsing" the world economy is just ludicrous. Nothing could be more craven than selling out every principle of human rights and international laws in exchange for a few euros, which is why I don't understand this European in-thralldom to Putin.

[Beet]

If we're just going to hurl abuse, let's turn this around and ask about (hydro-carbon related) American buddy-buddyism with Saudi Arabia.

Certainly the U.S. should drop its relationship with Saudi Arabia, but Saudi Arabia isn't going around invading its neighbors, and it hasn't started a war that has killed 5,000 people so far with no end in sight.

Also you don't see posters on Atlas saying "he had only himself to blame for his incompetence" when some Saudi funded terrorist group in Syria beheads a man.

[Beet]

Ukraine has to make a deal with Putin.  UAH has already dropped to 25 and Ukraine itself is basically broke.  Since Russia is its biggest trader partner, sanctions on Russia as well as falling oil prices also hurts Ukraine.  Ukraine has to realize there could only be two outcomes in this conflict since Ukraine is much weaker than Russia.  Either EU or USA visits the stronger side, Russia in this case, work out a deal and then impose it on Ukraine as fait accompli (a la Munich 1938) or EU/USA joins the conflict and even the odds making Ukraine not the weaker side.  Since there is no chance of the second outcome, it is either a deal being imposed on Ukraine or Ukraine just continues to bleed to death from a military and economic point of view.  It seems now that Germany and France is making such a deal with Putin right now.  We will have the see this deal looks like.  In my view unless it has enough concessions to Russia Putin will not stop.  I suggest Ukraine make a deal as fast as possible with significant concessions to Putin before more economic damage is done.

You're advocating a scenario you're openly comparing to Munich '38? This is terrible. A deal with significant concessions would only work if those concessions are a price paid in exchange for actually getting something. That something would have to be an ironclad, rock hard guarantee that what Putin has gained would be his last territorial demands for the rest of his life (or that if the present government) and that if any future government tries for more they will be backed to the hilt by the West - including militarily. And frankly, it's not clear whether the West has the political will to credibly make such promises. But Otherwise giving up major concessions beyond the September cease fire agreement already signed makes no sense unless you want to raise the Russian flag over Kiev tonight.