American Women are having more Abortions

[jojoju1998]

Would you agree with Cardinal Bernadin’s seamless garment approach ?

In general, yes. Ideally none of those things would occur. But, in what sense is he arguing these things?  Is he claiming they all lead to a loss of respect for life?

I'm more of a practical person, not some abstract intellectual. Some people argue that the mass shootings in the U.S are a result of a 'culture of celebration of death' in the United States due to such things as abortion and guns.

I'll go so far as to believe that based on its history, the U.S does have a culture of violence, but beyond that, I have no idea. There are 330 million Americans in the United States and hundreds of cities, how should I know what the 'U.S culture' is or what effects it on any kind of broad sociological level.  All I know is that, in general, when there are more guns and easy access to these guns, it makes sense to me there are going to be more deaths.  

When it comes to the rest, I prefer to argue them on a practical case by case basis, and I'm not an absolutist on any of those things.

I appreciate there are sociologists and others who have studied where mass societies are more likely to succeed based on the cultural climate, but I'm not familiar with much of that research.

His argument was that abortion, Euthnasia, War, the death penalty are all life issues, and elevating one over another would go against catholic social teaching.

[Benjamin Frank]

Would you agree with Cardinal Bernadin’s seamless garment approach ?

In general, yes. Ideally none of those things would occur. But, in what sense is he arguing these things?  Is he claiming they all lead to a loss of respect for life?

I'm more of a practical person, not some abstract intellectual. Some people argue that the mass shootings in the U.S are a result of a 'culture of celebration of death' in the United States due to such things as abortion and guns.

I'll go so far as to believe that based on its history, the U.S does have a culture of violence, but beyond that, I have no idea. There are 330 million Americans in the United States and hundreds of cities, how should I know what the 'U.S culture' is or what effects it on any kind of broad sociological level.  All I know is that, in general, when there are more guns and easy access to these guns, it makes sense to me there are going to be more deaths.  

When it comes to the rest, I prefer to argue them on a practical case by case basis, and I'm not an absolutist on any of those things.

I appreciate there are sociologists and others who have studied where mass societies are more likely to succeed based on the cultural climate, but I'm not familiar with much of that research.

His argument was that abortion, Euthnasia, War, the death penalty are all life issues, and elevating one over another would go against catholic social teaching.

I don't know. I prefer this: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

[Del Tachi]

To get back on-topic, more abortions should be best placed in the context of the simultaneous rise in "deaths of despair" and overall shorter life expectancy.

The demographic trajectory of 2020s America looks more and more like the post-Soviet bloc of the 1990s with every new study/report.  Eerie stuff. 

[jojoju1998]

To get back on-topic, more abortions should be best placed in the context of the simultaneous rise in "deaths of despair" and overall shorter life expectancy.

The demographic trajectory of 2020s America looks more and more like the post-Soviet bloc of the 1990s with every new study/report.  Eerie stuff. 

And with Ironcially, a hyper vocal Catholic Church.

[Benjamin Frank]

You rushed to throw out a screen grab of some reddit post as a "gotcha" rather than contemplate and engage my position.  Doing the latter would have been much more edifying.

I would have done this earlier but I had to sleep.  I apologize for misreading your comments as wanting to ban abortion when you did not say any such thing.  I'm sorry.

[Hermit For Peace]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

[Person Man]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

It would make more sense if restrictions on abortions were positively correlated with a general expansion of the value of the welfare of the people versus protecting property and civil rights.

[Hermit For Peace]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

Jesus did (Matthew 25:40).

[Hermit For Peace]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

Jesus did (Matthew 25:40).

Gods of Prosperity, you come across as a decent human being. I have been in conversations about the subject of abortion for many many years now. I'll tell you now that if all you have is a verse from the bible to quote, then you have no argument. This is what I keep saying, that anti abortionists want to lay down the religious and spiritual law for every female in the country, but you can't really do that. You can try, and you may succeed at times, but if our country makes it harder for women to have abortions there is going to be a backlash.

God vs human reality. And don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a higher power. My belief tells me that this is a benevolent, gracious, loving God, but the religious extremists want to speak for God and cast fire and hatred on already living, thriving human beings because they dare to exercise their freedom of choice. Doesn't make sense to me.

[jojoju1998]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.

[Hermit For Peace]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.

They just might. California and other states say they will be sanctuary states, and California even said they would help women with their transportation needs to come here. I don't know how real that is at the moment. Then there is medical abortion where women don't have to go anywhere, just take the medication. But the backward states want to prohibit that somehow.

I am really really very curious what is going to happen as far as backlash from women and those interested parties who are pro-choice when the SCOTUS does its questionable deed.

[Person Man]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

Jesus did (Matthew 25:40).

Gods of Prosperity, you come across as a decent human being. I have been in conversations about the subject of abortion for many many years now. I'll tell you now that if all you have is a verse from the bible to quote, then you have no argument. This is what I keep saying, that anti abortionists want to lay down the religious and spiritual law for every female in the country, but you can't really do that. You can try, and you may succeed at times, but if our country makes it harder for women to have abortions there is going to be a backlash.

God vs human reality. And don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a higher power. My belief tells me that this is a benevolent, gracious, loving God, but the religious extremists want to speak for God and cast fire and hatred on already living, thriving human beings because they dare to exercise their freedom of choice. Doesn't make sense to me.

It’s not even that. The verse he quoted assumed it’s main argument and is nonsequitor on its own.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

Jesus did (Matthew 25:40).

Gods of Prosperity, you come across as a decent human being. I have been in conversations about the subject of abortion for many many years now. I'll tell you now that if all you have is a verse from the bible to quote, then you have no argument. This is what I keep saying, that anti abortionists want to lay down the religious and spiritual law for every female in the country, but you can't really do that. You can try, and you may succeed at times, but if our country makes it harder for women to have abortions there is going to be a backlash.

God vs human reality. And don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a higher power. My belief tells me that this is a benevolent, gracious, loving God, but the religious extremists want to speak for God and cast fire and hatred on already living, thriving human beings because they dare to exercise their freedom of choice. Doesn't make sense to me.

I appreciate you saying I come across as a decent human being. I hope then you can understand that the desire to stop abortion is not in order to rigidly control people or to ignore their needs.  It really is to protect life before birth and not just afterwards.

You asked "who appointed you savior of the unborn?" and I gave the answer I believe in.  I believe it's my duty to try to protect Jesus' little brothers and sisters in the womb.  But someone doesn't need to be a Christian or believe in the Bible to oppose abortion. The pro-life position is strongest among Christians, but there are pro-life Jews, pro-life Muslims, pro-life Buddhists, pro-life Wiccans, and pro-life atheists. 

[Hermit For Peace]

Seems to me that there are many people out there who are focusing too narrowly on the issue of abortion. They come from the religious angle and can only see that abortion is an affront to God, somehow.

I mean, it would be nice if abortion was never necessary. I would be the first in line to sign up for a society that is more enlightened and had no need for messy abortion issues, or gun issues for that matter.

But we don't live in that world. We live in the real world where people have problems and need help. Just stop with all the moralizing. Sometimes women need to get abortions, and it's for a whole host of reasons that really is nobody's business.

Murder happens all around our country every day, most of it perpetrated by men. Why don't we do something about that rather than always trying to blame women for not being perfect and for not living life the way the religious ones and the moralists want them to.

Not "trying to blame women for not being perfect" does not mean letting babies be aborted for not being perfect. 

Murder of born people is already illegal in the US, government at all levels - from international agreements down to neighborhood associations - spend a lot of resources in trying to stop it, and there is no broad movement in society claiming that it's ok and that it ought to be funded by government and private actors. All pro-lifers ask is getting a little bit closer to that situation when it comes to killings of the unborn.

No that is not all what pro-lifer's want. They want complete control over the conversation of abortion. They want to control what women do with their bodies. They want everyone in the country to fall in line with their thoughts about God and morality, to the exclusion of what is good for the woman involved in an abortion, and also what is good for the people around her personally.

Why don't anti abortionists just control their own conversation, their own bodies, and if abortion is not for you then don't get one.

What is with trying to control every female in the country with their religious standards? As a woman, what right do you have to speak for me?

And for that matter, who appointed you savior of the unborn?

Jesus did (Matthew 25:40).

Gods of Prosperity, you come across as a decent human being. I have been in conversations about the subject of abortion for many many years now. I'll tell you now that if all you have is a verse from the bible to quote, then you have no argument. This is what I keep saying, that anti abortionists want to lay down the religious and spiritual law for every female in the country, but you can't really do that. You can try, and you may succeed at times, but if our country makes it harder for women to have abortions there is going to be a backlash.

God vs human reality. And don't get me wrong, I am a believer in a higher power. My belief tells me that this is a benevolent, gracious, loving God, but the religious extremists want to speak for God and cast fire and hatred on already living, thriving human beings because they dare to exercise their freedom of choice. Doesn't make sense to me.

I appreciate you saying I come across as a decent human being. I hope then you can understand that the desire to stop abortion is not in order to rigidly control people or to ignore their needs.  It really is to protect life before birth and not just afterwards.

You asked "who appointed you savior of the unborn?" and I gave the answer I believe in.  I believe it's my duty to try to protect Jesus' little brothers and sisters in the womb.  But someone doesn't need to be a Christian or believe in the Bible to oppose abortion. The pro-life position is strongest among Christians, but there are pro-life Jews, pro-life Muslims, pro-life Buddhists, pro-life Wiccans, and pro-life atheists. 

Thank you for your honest answer.

[Benjamin Frank]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.

They just might. California and other states say they will be sanctuary states, and California even said they would help women with their transportation needs to come here. I don't know how real that is at the moment. Then there is medical abortion where women don't have to go anywhere, just take the medication. But the backward states want to prohibit that somehow.

I am really really very curious what is going to happen as far as backlash from women and those interested parties who are pro-choice when the SCOTUS does its questionable deed.

Also, at a minimum, the city of Austin, Texas, says that it will not enforce an abortion ban.

I expect many similar decisions in 'blue' cities/counties in 'red' states.

A segment on the CBC Radio program Day 6:
If Roe v. Wade is struck down, the city of Austin, Texas, plans to tell police not to enforce a state ban.
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-14-day-6/clip/15919967-episode-603-corporate-concentration-and-food-prices-yourprouddad

I'm surprised this was from the city of Austin rather than the Travis County Sheriff or District Attorney, but certainly states and counties have discretion in deciding which laws they choose to enforce.  The state of Texas could pass a law mandating enforcement, but that would raise other issues relating to policing and prosecuting.

[Person Man]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.

They just might. California and other states say they will be sanctuary states, and California even said they would help women with their transportation needs to come here. I don't know how real that is at the moment. Then there is medical abortion where women don't have to go anywhere, just take the medication. But the backward states want to prohibit that somehow.

I am really really very curious what is going to happen as far as backlash from women and those interested parties who are pro-choice when the SCOTUS does its questionable deed.

Also, at a minimum, the city of Austin, Texas, says that it will not enforce an abortion ban.

I expect many similar decisions in 'blue' cities/counties in 'red' states.

A segment on the CBC Radio program Day 6:
If Roe v. Wade is struck down, the city of Austin, Texas, plans to tell police not to enforce a state ban.
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-14-day-6/clip/15919967-episode-603-corporate-concentration-and-food-prices-yourprouddad

I'm surprised this was from the city of Austin rather than the Travis County Sheriff or District Attorney, but certainly states and counties have discretion in deciding which laws they choose to enforce.  The state of Texas could pass a law mandating enforcement, but that would raise other issues relating to policing and prosecuting.

Couldn’t the state just “nationalize” the police and have Texas Rangers take over? Can Abbot fire the DAs or appoint inquisitors?

[Benjamin Frank]

It would be ironic if abortions went up if Roe is repealed.

They just might. California and other states say they will be sanctuary states, and California even said they would help women with their transportation needs to come here. I don't know how real that is at the moment. Then there is medical abortion where women don't have to go anywhere, just take the medication. But the backward states want to prohibit that somehow.

I am really really very curious what is going to happen as far as backlash from women and those interested parties who are pro-choice when the SCOTUS does its questionable deed.

Also, at a minimum, the city of Austin, Texas, says that it will not enforce an abortion ban.

I expect many similar decisions in 'blue' cities/counties in 'red' states.

A segment on the CBC Radio program Day 6:
If Roe v. Wade is struck down, the city of Austin, Texas, plans to tell police not to enforce a state ban.
https://www.cbc.ca/listen/live-radio/1-14-day-6/clip/15919967-episode-603-corporate-concentration-and-food-prices-yourprouddad

I'm surprised this was from the city of Austin rather than the Travis County Sheriff or District Attorney, but certainly states and counties have discretion in deciding which laws they choose to enforce.  The state of Texas could pass a law mandating enforcement, but that would raise other issues relating to policing and prosecuting.

Couldn’t the state just “nationalize” the police and have Texas Rangers take over? Can Abbot fire the DAs or appoint inquisitors?

The first part yes, but it's not like they don't already have their own criminal investigations to focus on.

The second part, it doesn't look like it: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/texas-district-attorneys-push-back-gov-abbotts-child/story?id=83108601

and
https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2022/02/24/defying-gov-abbott-bexar-county-da-wont-prosecute-families-for-transgender-health-care/

The Democratic district attorneys have been at odds with the governor and attorney general over many issues over the past few years, including fights over mask mandates and other restrictions related to COVID-19.

The Texas attorney general’s ability to unilaterally prosecute cases is also unclear.

Late last year, the state’s highest criminal court ruled that Paxton could not unilaterally prosecute election cases without a referral from a county or district attorney first.