1st Presidential Debate Megathread

[GeneralMacArthur]

Tonight, 60 million people will see how old and frail Biden looks . That will make a difference. People don’t watch debate for substance, to get actual insight. They don’t listen to what the candidates say. They go by impression, and the way a candidate looks is often critical. It shouldn’t be this way, but it is.

Enough.  This is how Biden looked in his last on-screen debate.  He certainly looks old, but not one-foot-in-his-grave the way you describe it.  He moves and speaks with precision and confidence.

[GeneralMacArthur]

media.thedonald.win/post/i1LE38aR.jpeg

ah, I see now why your worldview is so bizarre and detached from reality.  You get your news from thedonald.win

[GeneralMacArthur]

Somebody a little low energy?

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/09/breaking-joe-bidens-campaign-requests-breaks-every-30-minutes-tonights-first-debate/

BREAKING: Joe Biden’s Campaign Requests Breaks EVERY 30 MINUTES during Tonight’s First Debate — VIDEO

thegatewaypundit and this is where I stopped reading.....

They're highlighting "EVERY 30 MINUTES" as though that's not a completely normal period for commercial breaks.

Next up:  WEAK Cincinnati Bengals request a break EVERY 30 MINUTES during NFL game.  Is this evidence that LOW ENERGY JOE BURROW is sick and weak and can't go 45 minutes without a steroid injection?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Many people are saying that President Donald J. Trump will be wearing a diaper at tonight's debate.

I'm not the one saying that, I'm hearing it, all over cable news, all the people, talking, all the people saying it.

That's probably why, now I don't know why, but that's probably why his team didn't want to have any breaks in the debate.  Maybe they know that, since he's wearing a diaper, he won't need to go to the bathroom.  Maybe they know that and so they don't want to have any breaks to let Joe use the bathroom.  Maybe not.  But who knows?  Maybe.

And if you don't believe me, there's an easy way to prove it, Trump should agree to a diaper check before the debate.  Both candidates take off their pants and prove that they are not wearing diapers.  But he won't agree to that.  I'll let you guys decide why but I think I know why.

[GeneralMacArthur]

does anyone else think Trump is going to have a mini nervous breakdown tonight?  between his sagging poll numbers, the tax release, and looming jail time if he loses the election, I think he will...

He’s going to sound unhinged. He’s going to be lashing out at everyone and everything.

You guys really need to go back and watch some of Trump's debates with Clinton.

He is not unhinged.  He's not lashing out.  There are a few things that really stick out:

1) Trump relentlessly, relentlessly, harps on his talking points.  He only really has two or three things he can say about each particular issue, but he says them in 5 or 6 different ways and often has an illustrative story or two.

2) Trump has prepared talking points to undermine Clinton on every single issue, and he's pretty good at directing the dialogue to a point where he can smack her with them.  A lot of the time they are lies.  But Clinton failed here because she kept saying things like "I hope the fact checkers are covering this" or "people, go to my website, get the facts."

3) Trump would also frequently use the gish gallop technique.  He'd rattle off ten lies in a row, and Clinton could only respond to 1 or 2 of them at most, so the other 8-9 would stand.

4) Trump would frequently interrupt Clinton when she was responding to him, particularly when she was trying to refute his lies.  He would either interrupt her with the well-known "WRONG" or some sort of digression, or he would interrupt her to harp on some minor point and try to redirect the whole conversation to that minor point, as though if he got that one win he would win the entire argument.  And to a lot of the audience, that's what it probably looked like.

5) Trump completely abused the debate moderator in all three debates.  He would constantly talk over his time.  He would interrupt the moderators and yell over them.  If they tried to fact check them, he would yell into his microphone and interrupt their fact-checks, either to belabor some minor point where he was right, or just flat out tell them their facts were wrong.  He would interrupt Clinton non-stop in much the same fashion.

While he's undoubtedly rude and boorish, he never comes off as unhinged or desperate or manic.  On the contrary, he's very in control the entire debate.  Clinton never succeeded in knocking him off his game because he would just ignore everything she said that he couldn't respond to, and shift the conversation to either some minor point where he could fight to a draw or some attack he had on her as a whataboutism.

Republicans here on Atlas follow much the same pattern.  They learn from their king.  Just ignore 99% of the devastating post you're replying to and focus in on some minor point where you think you can stand your ground, or shift the topic to some other attack line and pretend like you didn't just get owned.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I honestly think Biden's best strategy would just be to dismiss Trump's responses as "all lies, as expected" or something similar.  Don't engage at all.  If Trump responds, say something like "folks, who are you gonna believe, me or him?  This guy has lied over 20,000 times in his presidency.  He lied about X, he lied about Y, he lied about Z.  If you still trust him after all the lies he's told, God help ya."

Another tactic could be to give his standard answer, then say "now Trump says X.  It's a complete lie.  A complete lie!  And don't just take it from me, go look it up yourself!  My god, the lies this man tells, I don't know how he can keep a straight face."

[GeneralMacArthur]

Absolutely.
Watching the 2016 debates after knowing everything is like watching a train wreck in slow motion.

Yeah I completely agree.  I remembered the 2016 debates as a set of three solid wins for Hillary.  Going back and watching, it's clear that Trump won.  And I cringe at some of Hillary's lines.

And this isn't a knock on Hillary.  She did a great job at beating him in a traditional debate according to the traditional rules.  It's just that, even then, we didn't understand what we understand now about the Trump administration, how his cult works, how the media ecosphere around him works, and how he convinces people to stick with him.

Now we understand that there is no "winning" with the people who support them.  It's an endless rabbit hole of contradictory or trivial arguments.  And if you let him sit there and make those arguments, if you play his game, he'll always win just by being louder and stickier in people's minds.  People don't want to believe that there's something wrong with him.  They want to support Trump.  The default position of 45% of America is die-hard support for Trump.  They can be lured away from it momentarily by a sufficiently persuasive argument, but they're just looking for a reason to snap back.

Hillary shouldn't have bothered trying to defeat him on that turf because there's simply no point.  What she should have done was present herself as simply better, solid, strong.  She should have focused on defending herself from his attacks and presenting a solid and compelling case for her presidency.  By wrestling in the mud with him, she just came away losing and losing and losing and not even realizing that she was losing.  It's only with hindsight of four years that we understand that she lost those fights.

If she had locked down the other 55% of the country, she would have won in a landslide.  Instead, she just kept losing fights with Trump, and 10% of the country voted third party or stayed home, letting Trump's 45% rule the day.

I'm looking for Biden to not make the same mistake.  He should get in the big hits, but only to highlight the contrast between himself and Trump.  Just saying "200,000 people have died on Trump's watch" is not effective because it starts a fight with Trump that he will always win.  But saying "200,000 people have died on Trump's watch, under my plan, most of those lives could have been saved, here is what I would do differently"  would work.

And Clinton did try this approach sometimes.  It's just that her talking points came off so rehearsed and clinical that people tuned them out.  There are a few she has like "experts say that Trump's plan would add $10 trillion to the national debt while my plan would cut $2 trillion" but they just aren't delivered effectively.  There's no passion in the numbers, she just says them very matter-of-fact.  Biden should deliver that kind of thing like "Every expert, every expert says that Trump's plan would add ten trillion dollars to the national debt.  Ten trillion dollars!  Just think about that folks!  That's more money than we spent on all our wars combined.  All our wars combined, all that money, going straight into the pockets of Trump and his rich friends.  What a con!  My plan, on the other hand, would save, save, save 2 trillion dollars.  Just think about that."

[GeneralMacArthur]

Trump-Biden has nothing on Karpov-Korchnoi 1978:

Karpov suspected Korchnoi of hiring a hypnotist to sit in the audience and hypnotize him during a previous match, so he brought a counter-hypnotist to the Philippines.

Dr. Zukhar fixed an unbroken stare upon Korchnoi during the entire 39 minutes which Karpov devoted to [his 15th] move; Korchnoi seemed not to notice.

In retaliation, Korchnoi befriended two local murderers, out on bail after stabbing an Indian diplomat. They had come to visit the match in hopes of getting on television to promote their cult, Ananda Marga. Korchnoi was angry that Karpov's hypnotist was allowed to sit in the audience, so he demanded that the cult members be allowed in as well. They moved into his hotel and also reportedly taught him yoga. There was quite a large drama about getting them out of the playing hall but after multiple days they were ejected over Korchoi's protests.

In the meantime, Korchnoi defended himself from the hypnotist's attacks by wearing mirrored sunglasses. This led him to discover that he could use the mirror to reflect light into Karpov's eyes, which he did immediately. Karpov complained to the arbiters but they allowed Korchnoi to continue to wear them.

Both players suspected that the other was cheating by receiving outside assistance, and voiced this opinion frequently. Karpov demanded that Korchnoi's chair be x-rayed to look for a communication device, and it was duly taken to the local hospital and x-rayed.

Yet out of all the nonsense that happened in this match, the most famous is this: Karpov received a blueberry yogurt from a waiter during the second game and Korchnoi's team immediately complained to the arbiter that it was a coded signal telling him what move to play. The two sides compromised that Karpov would only receive food at a predetermined time, and that Korchnoi's camp would receive advanced notice of the color of the yogurt.

The chess? For whatever reason, this match is not very well remembered for its chess. Karpov was a stronger player and 20 years younger and won without ever being behind in the match, though Korchnoi caught up at a few points.

[GeneralMacArthur]

I'm glad i don't have to vote. Biden is unworthy of my vote. A bland, boring choice who offers nothing to America and change nothing, except for undo everything Trump did, which is arguably a net win compared to "four more years of Trump who hasn't grown into office". This debate showed that Democrats have learned nothing in the last four years. (Neither did Trump F.Y.I.) Either way, regardless of who wins, America has still a long road ahead of them before being a great country back again. Biden would've lost every election except for this one, where most people just want Trump to get out, instead of Uncle Joe getting elected. It's time to build a leftist opposition against president Biden after the election is over. That's what America needs, a huge leftist opposition movement, incl. Sanders, AOC, Yang, Warren, The Squad and more).

Imagine being on Atlas for the entire last year and still thinking that Biden is offering nothing for America.

This tired leftie talking point is just so damn ignorant.  Biden discussed, or at least tried to discuss, plenty of different policy proposals last night, and if you go to his website there's dozens more.  If you watch any of his speeches or town halls he has plenty that he is offering the country.

To still be sitting here on September 30, 2020 and believing (assuming you're not just trolling) that "Biden offers nothing to America" is just so astonishingly ignorant.  How can you comment on an election every day without having made even the slightest effort to pay attention to what Joe Biden says or stands for?

[GeneralMacArthur]

I'm glad i don't have to vote. Biden is unworthy of my vote. A bland, boring choice who offers nothing to America and change nothing, except for undo everything Trump did, which is arguably a net win compared to "four more years of Trump who hasn't grown into office". This debate showed that Democrats have learned nothing in the last four years. (Neither did Trump F.Y.I.) Either way, regardless of who wins, America has still a long road ahead of them before being a great country back again. Biden would've lost every election except for this one, where most people just want Trump to get out, instead of Uncle Joe getting elected. It's time to build a leftist opposition against president Biden after the election is over. That's what America needs, a huge leftist opposition movement, incl. Sanders, AOC, Yang, Warren, The Squad and more).

Imagine being on Atlas for the entire last year and still thinking that Biden is offering nothing for America.

This tired leftie talking point is just so damn ignorant.  Biden discussed, or at least tried to discuss, plenty of different policy proposals last night, and if you go to his website there's dozens more.  If you watch any of his speeches or town halls he has plenty that he is offering the country.

To still be sitting here on September 30, 2020 and believing (assuming you're not just trolling) that "Biden offers nothing to America" is just so astonishingly ignorant.  How can you comment on an election every day without having made even the slightest effort to pay attention to what Joe Biden says or stands for?

I don't think you appreciate the extent to which much of the support for Biden is a vote against Donald Trump, and not a vote of confidence in Biden himself, or his policy proposals. I'm not going to say that Biden offers nothing for America-as I've noted elsewhere, he pointed out the holes in Trump's record, and he has made substantive policy proposals on issues such as police brutality and the like. But most voters see this election as either a quest to "stop the radical left" (Trumpists) or as a mission to restore some basic decency to the country (Biden supporters). Progressives and Sanders supporters, on balance, dislike Trump just as much as the rest of the base, but have legitimate concerns about policy that extend back years, and were highlighted during the 2016 election.

Oh that's fine, I absolutely love Joe but I would say that voting against Trump is of much greater consequences to me than voting for Biden.  I suppose that means my support for Joe is mostly a vote "against Trump."

But to try to act like Biden hasn't made any substantive policy proposals, or that he's running on nothing but "I'm not Trump", is just a tired old left-wing talking point that is 100% untrue.  It's 100% false.  And anyone repeating it is either ignorant or maliciously lying to smear Joe.

If you're a progressive and have policy disagreements with Biden, good for you.  That's not what Laki said.  What he said was:

"I'm glad i don't have to vote. Biden is unworthy of my vote. A bland, boring choice who offers nothing to America and change nothing, except for undo everything Trump did, which is arguably a net win compared to "four more years of Trump who hasn't grown into office". This debate showed that Democrats have learned nothing in the last four years. (Neither did Trump F.Y.I.)"

Complete lie.  Absolute, 100%, complete lie.

[GeneralMacArthur]

If he's not going to advance your particular favorite policies, that's very different from saying he stands for nothing and has no policies other than undoing whatever Trump did.

Example:  Biden has a very comprehensive climate and green energy plan that reaches net-zero emissions by 2050.  This is a policy where he's gone into plenty of detail, both in debates and in speeches.  This policy was a key point of difference between him and Bernie -- they spent 15 minutes talking about in their debate (remember "good, but nowhere near enough"?)  This is a policy goal Biden has worked towards at previous points in his career, both in the Obama administration and as a senator.

I'm sorry that's not the Green New Deal.  I'm sorry Joe Biden doesn't want to completely dismantle the economy and spend $90 Trillion implementing a 28-year-old freshman representative's Mock Congress essay.  I'm sorry that he has his own plan that he came up with himself that achieves a green economy and net-zero carbon emissions much more efficiently and effectively.  But to act like, because he doesn't have your particular plan, that he "has no plan" or that there's "no reason for you to vote for him" or "he doesn't stand for anything" is just a complete lie.

[GeneralMacArthur]

your view that it is "my way or the highway" isn't one that will help mend the divides between moderates and progressives within the Democratic Party.

Biden has adopted plenty of progressive policy positions, most notably the $15 minimum wage.  You guys just completely ignore those and focus on the ones he hasn't adopted, and then lie lie lie by mischaracterizing that as "my way or the highway."

If Biden were to come out tomorrow and say "I plan on implementing AOC's Green New Deal on my first day in office" the new talking point would be "I can't vote for Biden, he stands for nothing, why won't he adopt M4A, he isn't going to earn progressive votes with this my way or the highway approach."  And so it would continue on, forever and always, the long and winding road of bad-faith rhetoric that ends with everyone just wasting their time as usual.