de Blasio continues to run Bloomberg's racist, drug warrior police department

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Why do you think they have more police in bad neighborhoods?  They have more crime.  Do you think there is an equal amount of crime between Bed-Stuy and the Upper East Side.  Murders are an easy metric.  Do you believe there are hundreds of unreported murders in white neighborhoods going unreported? 

Listen, there's no way to argue that whites and Asians commit crimes near the same rate as blacks and Hispanics.  That's not a racist thing to say, it's just a statistical fact.  And, it's a fact that most of the victims of crime are also black and Hispanic.  Nobody seems to care about them. 

And, I didn't say that's all there is to it.  It's also that black and Hispanic neighborhoods have a higher police presence.  Police might also be more aggressive in those neighborhoods because it's way more dangerous to police a crime infested neighborhood.  And, it's also true that cops are racist.  But, my point is that you can't just take a statistic with a black/white disparity and immediately assume that the main cause is racism.

I'm not arguing that we ignore the numbers. I'm arguing that they be put into context. You say blacks and Hispanics commit crimes at vastly higher rates than whites and Asians. I'd say first, you have to remove (or at least acknowledge) the effect of blacks and Hispanics getting caught committing crimes at higher rates than whites and Asians, or being in close proximity to police more than those other groups. If the police believe your thesis, chances are they're going to be stopping, searching, rousting those groups more than others (which is, in fact, just what we see). If after accounting for that we find that there is still a disparity, then it's on us, if we're being rigorous, to examine why.

The way you tell it, it's that blacks and Hispanics have a greater propensity to commit crime period. But race and class are linked pretty tightly. Could it be that poorer people are more likely to commit (or be caught committing, or be charged with) crime, and poor people are disproportionately black and Hispanic? Could it be that even middle class blacks and Hispanics tend to live in much greater proximity to poverty than white people?

Stopping where you stopped is the problem.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Slow your roll, guy. Nobody's demanding anybody ignore facts. But it hadn't been at all clear from what you'd said before, until the tail end of that last post, that you weren't saying there was something intrinsic to black people that made them commit more crimes.

[Slander and/or Libel]

Oh good Lord. Enough.

EDIT: Let me try again. If there is not something intrinsic about black and Hispanic people that make them commit more crimes, then they must commit more crimes for other reasons than their race, which makes racial profiling and systems that bias their results in racist ways problematic, correct?

You seemed to pooh-pooh that the cause of that disparity was racism. Which implied, to me, that you weren't interested in digging deeper. But your last post says (but doesn't explain) that you don't think there exists such an intrinsic disparity. So what is to be done? What's your point in all this, if you don't think blacks and Hispanics are intrinsically predisposed to crime?

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

[Slander and/or Libel]

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

Way more crime by what measure? More arrests? I'd guess that more arrests are going to happen in places that have a higher rate of foot patrols, right?

You've shown absolutely no willingness to view this issue outside of the racist lens of "Black people commit more crimes, that's all there is to it!" It's pretty gross.

Murdered people for one.

Crime =/= Murder.

Murder is a crime though and it's certainly indicative of the trends in violent crime in general.

Think about who commits crime. Generally poor young men. How many poor white people are there in New York City?  Not many.

Now we're getting somewhere! Are you saying poor people commit more crimes, and that you think "black and Hispanic" is a completely reasonable shorthand for "poor" in NYC?

[Slander and/or Libel]

From your first post in the thread:

White people in NYC don't tend to commit crimes in general so they're just less likely to interact with police.

From your third post in the thread:

I'll grant you that you may have a point on things like stoop drinking and public urination.  They don't have nearly as many foot patrols in the UWS as Brownsville.  But, that's because Brownsville has waaaaay more crime.  Should the NYPD take cops out of dangerous neighborhoods and use them to write tickets for jaywalking in Chelsea?  That's the trade-off.

From your fourth post in the thread:

So, do you think that whites and blacks commit the same number of crimes, or not?  Should they police black neighborhoods less?  White neighborhoods more? 

From your fifth post in the thread:

White people in NYC have fewer interactions with cops.  Their neighborhoods aren't heavily policed, they commit fewer crimes, they don't belong to gangs, they don't live in housing projects, etc.

From your sixth post in the thread:

The neighborhoods with no white or Asian residents have the highest murder rates.  In the 80% white areas of Manhattan, murders are extremely rare.  Are people pretending to get murdered by black people?  Is the NYPD framing people for murder?

From the beginning, you were talking about this in terms of black and white, in such a way that reading you as saying black people are just intrinsically more likely to commit crimes was not at all unreasonable. And you've consistently equated crime and murder, which aren't really the same thing.

There are a lot of crimes which happen but nobody knows about, or nobody gets caught for. Marijuana possession is one. Jaywalking is another. But if you live in an area with a high police presence, you're much more likely to get caught (and punished) for those crimes, which are happening roughly everywhere, but only being strictly enforced in selected areas. Once people in those  heavily policed neighborhoods start to accrue arrest records, sometimes for doing the very same stuff people in other neighborhoods are doing, just outside of the near-constant scrutiny of the police, their economic prospects, and those of the neighborhood at large, get gloomier, and it creates a negative feedback loop.

I suppose what I'm saying is this: if you want to point to some numbers and say black people are more often arrested than white people, proportionately with their share of the population, it's likely true, but incredibly misleading until you've controlled for a number of factors, some of which are very confounding. But to pretend that crimes just aren't happening in "white neighborhoods" (your words) misses the point.