SB 2018-158: Free Higher Education for Atlasia Act (Passed)

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I am going to have to oppose this bill. Given that we as a Nation are already running a deficit of around 900 Billion Dollars, the fact that this bill's funding seems to be rather shaky overall, I cannot support this bill from a fiscal standpoint.

[Pericles]

I am going to have to oppose this bill. Given that we as a Nation are already running a deficit of around 900 Billion Dollars, the fact that this bill's funding seems to be rather shaky overall, I cannot support this bill from a fiscal standpoint.

What are your concerns with the funding? I changed the initial funding as it was inadequate to include a financial transactions tax, so with that added I'd think the bill would be revenue-neutral or actually reduce the deficit, but no estimates have been done on the amendment as I want input on how to exempt housing from the financial transactions tax and generally make sure the amendment is written properly, and then we can move to a vote on that amendment.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

I support the general idea, but the current financial crises needs to be addressed first.

[Pericles]

I support the general idea, but the current financial crises needs to be addressed first.

That's why it needs to be fully funded. In that case it costs nothing and is a good bill. And the $10.77 billion cost(before fudning) is a drop in the bucket anyway compared to the $904 billion deficit. This bill is good for Atlasia. Ad a more educated populace is good for the economy and in the long term this will be good for the government too with greater revenue resulting from higher productivity. But fundamentally if this is a good bill it should be passed, the deficit isn't going to be an issue here.

[Former Senator Haslam2020]

I approve.

[fhtagn]

I'd still like to see Former Senator cinyc and Senator Lumine's concerns addressed, because they seem to be overlooked.

Sure, a more educated populace is good, but if those degrees we are paying for are things like liberal arts degrees with no real career field to go into or degrees in fields where there are already too many people going into for the jobs actually available, it causes the economy more harm than good. 

[Lumine]

I'd have to argue that, small part of the deficit or not, continuously adding into the deficit is not something we should be doing even if the impact would, at a first glance, appear not to be that critical. I support some types of spending on potentially ambitious bills, but within contexts in which the benefit of the bill is immediate or rather clear.

I am not convinced at the present this bill is either, for there are other methods to finance college (which is but one of many paths someone can follow, even within higher education), there's a question as to whether it is really beneficial to have an excess of college graduates in an economic context in which many of those will end up working in vastly different jobs than what they studied for. There's even a question to be asked as to whether some particular careers are worth the cost and effort of being funded by the state, and I can perfectly argue there's plenty of degrees which are a very questionable priority in terms of funding.

Myself I wonder if perhaps the time is right to take this to a final vote, unless someone wishes to make an amendment or answer to those concerns more thoroughly.

[At-Large Senator LouisvilleThunder]

Amendment S11:06

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Here is my idea to encourage students to choose majors that are more likely to get them jobs. I also include offer a voluntary opt-out option for students who do not wish to attend college in favor of other choices which can be better suited to them. Hopefully, these tweaks also make this deficit neutral. I also struck through some sections that threaten regional autonomy such as that line giving preference to tenured teachers and professors which I don't deem as necessary to include in this bill. This amendment is necessary because it protects freedom of choice for students while it still allows any working or middle-class student to choose to go to college for free if he or she wishes to do so.

[Lumine]

Sponsor, is the amendment friendly or hostile?

[Pericles]

The amendment to section 4 is fine but the rest is hostile. Either the amendment should be amended or I'll introduce my own counter amendment.

[Lumine]

Amendment considered hostile. Per Senate rules a vote will start 24 hours after the amendment was introduced (tomorrow night).

[Pericles]

My new amendment-adding to my previous amendment. Underlined and bolded are the changes to my previous amendment, bolded is the rest of the amendment that is still to be voted on.

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[fhtagn]

It's terrible to think that there are those who think it's a good idea to hurt the middle/working class by charging an extra fee for housing transactions over $300k, especially since in several parts of the country, that amount gets you a very small, sometimes run down house (and in some cases you can't even get a house, but a condo or apartment) in a poor neighborhood.

I'd also have to see if I can find the source when I'm on a computer, but nationwide, the median price for a single family home based on 2016 numbers was something around $320k.

[Pericles]

It's terrible to think that there are those who think it's a good idea to hurt the middle/working class by charging an extra fee for housing transactions over $300k, especially since in several parts of the country, that amount gets you a very small, sometimes run down house (and in some cases you can't even get a house, but a condo or apartment) in a poor neighborhood.

I'd also have to see if I can find the source when I'm on a computer, but nationwide, the median price for a single family home based on 2016 numbers was something around $320k.

Do you have a suggestion for an alternative value for housing? And how come you didn't call out LT-he also supports the same fee? Your choice whether to score political points or actually provide the leadership you promised.

[Pericles]

I'm open to amendments and am happy to accept constructive criticism but the bill has to be improved, not gutted. I don't have time for point scoring.

[fhtagn]

It's terrible to think that there are those who think it's a good idea to hurt the middle/working class by charging an extra fee for housing transactions over $300k, especially since in several parts of the country, that amount gets you a very small, sometimes run down house (and in some cases you can't even get a house, but a condo or apartment) in a poor neighborhood.

I'd also have to see if I can find the source when I'm on a computer, but nationwide, the median price for a single family home based on 2016 numbers was something around $320k.

Do you have a suggestion for an alternative value for housing? And how come you didn't call out LT-he also supports the same fee? Your choice whether to score political points or actually provide the leadership you promised.

I did not specifically call you out, in fact my post was worded to suggest that there was more than one person I was criticizing for this idea.

Personally I don't think that going after housing is a good idea at all since it can lead to people becoming less likely to buy a home, make it harder for those trying to sell their homes, and harm the livelihoods of those who work in real estate.

You also have ignored the concerns raised by Senator Lumine in actual debate and your amendment does nothing to address those very valid concerns.

This isn't about scoring political points, it's pointing out flaws in legislation that doesn't actually help people.

[Pericles]

I've specifically said that I'm open to an amendment to subsidize the trades as well, and that, despite the funding concerns, the bill-once the financial transaction fee is passed(that means my amendment has to be passed) would likely be revenue neutral or even reduce the deficit.

[fhtagn]

I've specifically said that I'm open to an amendment to subsidize the trades as well, and that, despite the funding concerns, the bill-once the financial transaction fee is passed(that means my amendment has to be passed) would likely be revenue neutral or even reduce the deficit.

Okay, that's great that you're open to subsidizing trades, but here are a few other concerns that were not adequately addressed in debate:

If you think banks are just going to be charged a "risk" fee without passing that on to their customers, I have a bridge to sell you.

Senators, where do we stand on this?

Much like the Atlasian Drone Regulation Act, I cannot support this bill as presented. I would necessarily have to echo several of the concerns made by cinyc in the past, particularly regarding cost and means (which I do find a bit irresponsible or too idealistic in outlook). There is also the fact that universities are far from the sole option for the future, and even further, that having ever increasing numbers of college graduates is not necessarily sound when it is rather evident there already is a significant degree of oversaturation.

I myself am not convinced it is a good idea to pursue such policies when already thousands of college graduates in Atlasia cannot find a job in what they studied for, particularly when accounting for the cost and for other priorities which might be more efficient than this particular (and rather ambitious) subsidy.

[Pericles]

I don't think that much of the incidence of the tax would fall on consumers-and this issue is outweighed by the revenue raised from it. The fee also is intended to serve as a disincentive to risky behavior from the banks, so as well as raising revenue it helps create a healthier financial system-which would of course benefit consumers a lot more than any possible negative impact from the fee. And I take Lumine's concerns to mean we shouldn't just subsidize universities, and that's a concern that has validity, but not one that should topple the entire bill. As stated previously, universities are also beneficial and people should have the opportunity to access them-and the benefit of this approach is people have greater choice and opportunity to decide their own future.

[fhtagn]

I don't think that much of the incidence of the tax would fall on consumers-and this issue is outweighed by the revenue raised from it. The fee also is intended to serve as a disincentive to risky behavior from the banks, so as well as raising revenue it helps create a healthier financial system-which would of course benefit consumers a lot more than any possible negative impact from the fee. And I take Lumine's concerns to mean we shouldn't just subsidize universities, and that's a concern that has validity, but not one that should topple the entire bill. As stated previously, universities are also beneficial and people should have the opportunity to access them-and the benefit of this approach is people have greater choice and opportunity to decide their own future.

That's fine that you don't think that, but to think that this fee wouldn't fall on the consumers is simply putting on the blinders to the truth because you want to see something you are pushing pass. And that's fine if you really feel that way, but just admit that you don't care how the banks cover it.

The fact of the matter is, if they have to shell out more money for any reason, they will find ways to ensure that the extra money spent is covered, which in most cases, means extra fees for their customers. That's how it works.

And "The banks have plenty if money and the risk fee is well targeted" (your original response) does nothing to address that fact and just proves the point that you're not thinking through the consequences of the fees and taxes that fund this bill.

[Pericles]

I urge a delay in voting on any amendments as negotiations are ongoing and I can't promise that these amendments are the final versions of themselves.

[Lumine]

Per Senate rules I'm mandated to start a vote, so we will now vote on LouisvilleThunder's amendment (and after that we should be voting on Pericles's amendment):

Amendment S11:06

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Here is my idea to encourage students to choose majors that are more likely to get them jobs. I also include offer a voluntary opt-out option for students who do not wish to attend college in favor of other choices which can be better suited to them. Hopefully, these tweaks also make this deficit neutral. I also struck through some sections that threaten regional autonomy such as that line giving preference to tenured teachers and professors which I don't deem as necessary to include in this bill. This amendment is necessary because it protects freedom of choice for students while it still allows any working or middle-class student to choose to go to college for free if he or she wishes to do so.

72 hours, gentlemen, unless a majority has voted for or against before that deadline.

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Nay

[Lumine]

Nay.

[Pericles]

Nay.