The Wisconsin Cheese Showdown

[Beet]

For those supporting the unions, how would you close Wisconsin's budget gap?

[jimrtex]

Why is it even necessary to run to another state or wherever? Is there some bizarre law in the U.S that means that legislators can be forced to attend? I remember being confused over the Texas thing for the same reason.

For example the US Constitution Article I, Section 5 says:

Each House shall be the Judge of the Elections, Returns and Qualifications of its own Members, and a Majority of each shall constitute a Quorum to do Business; but a smaller Number may adjourn from day to day, and <b>may be authorized to compel the Attendance of absent Members, in such Manner, and under such Penalties as each House may provide.</b>

The Texas Constitution is almost word for word identical.

Senate Police Seize Packwood for Quorum Call

[Landslide Lyndon]

For those supporting the unions, how would you close Wisconsin's budget gap?

There is no budget gap. According the fiscal bureau (the Wisconsin equivalent of CBO) the state was on track to have a balanced budget, or even a surplus, by the end of the current fiscal year.

There was a temporary gap because of some tax-cutting measures Walker pushed through the legislature during the first days of his administration.
  

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Exactly. Fix the issue by repealing what Walker did.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

[cinyc]

Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason.

As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress.

Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc.

You and your liberal friends can keep on spinning, claiming Wisconsin would have no budget deficit but for those evil Republicans and their reckless spending.  But you begin to sound like Baghdad Bob when folks recognize that almost every state is racking up a huge deficit, and even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC Wisconsin governor told his successor that he would be facing a deficit of $2.2 BILLION - and that estimate was rosy.  The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the deficit to be $2.7 billion, and an economist at the University of Wisconsin at $3.1 billion.  

In fact, according to the state's comptroller, Wisconsin has run in the red for over a decade, and the size of Wisconsin's structural deficit has increased every year during that period but one.  But now that a Republican is in office, Wisconsin's deficit would have magically disappeared but for their reckless spending and/or tax cuts.  Sure.

Governor Walker must be a miracle worker to close a $2 to $3 billion deficit in just a few months!  The liberal sources from which you get your "facts" should be lauding him for such a remarkable fiscal turnaround!  But they're not - instead, they are attacking him for not lavishing as much of the public fisc on public employees as they would like.

[cinyc]

The closed schools are in MADISON. People in Madison aren't going to vote Republican over that.

Schools in other districts were closed yesterday, too - including Racine, Glendale-River Hills, Watertown and Beaver Dam in Southeastern Wisconsin.

[Beet]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

[Landslide Lyndon]

Talking Points Memo for your information is a much more credible source of news than your beloved FOX. They have gotten numerous journalistic awards, and for a good reason.

As for the budget numbers you so cavalierly dismissed as an "evil liberal plot", they were posted by the Wisconsin budget office which is a non-partisan state organization, like the CBO is for congress.

Better luck next time you try refuting facts with lies cinyc.

You and your liberal friends can keep on spinning, claiming Wisconsin would have no budget deficit but for those evil Republicans and their reckless spending.  But you begin to sound like Baghdad Bob when folks recognize that almost every state is racking up a huge deficit, and even the outgoing DEMOCRATIC Wisconsin governor told his successor that he would be facing a deficit of $2.2 BILLION - and that estimate was rosy.  The Legislative Fiscal Bureau estimated the deficit to be $2.7 billion, and an economist at the University of Wisconsin at $3.1 billion.  

In fact, according to the state's comptroller, Wisconsin has run in the red for over a decade, and the size of Wisconsin's structural deficit has increased every year during that period but one.  But now that a Republican is in office, Wisconsin's deficit would have magically disappeared but for their reckless spending and/or tax cuts.  Sure.

Governor Walker must be a miracle worker to close a $2 to $3 billion deficit in just a few months!  The liberal sources from which you get your "facts" should be lauding him for such a remarkable fiscal turnaround!  But they're not - instead, they are attacking him for not lavishing as much of the public fisc on public employees as they would like.

You should check your sources because they are rather spotty. Then again like your beloved FOX you care more about creating narratives rather than telling the truth.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

In fact, like just about every other state in the country, Wisconsin is managing in a weak economy. The difference is that Wisconsin is managing better -- or at least it had been managing better until Walker took over. Despite shortfalls in revenue following the economic downturn that hit its peak with the Bush-era stock market collapse, the state has balanced budgets, maintained basic services and high-quality schools, and kept employment and business development steadier than the rest of the country. It has managed so well, in fact, that the nonpartisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau recently released a memo detailing how the state will end the 2009-2011 budget biennium with a budget surplus.

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

(snip)_

Here is the document. Enjoy reading.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

[jimrtex]

The Dems all went to Santa Fe in that little drama. At least they had good taste in towns. And in the end, the Dems were f'ed, so it all had a happy ending.

The senators went to Santa Fe.  The representatives went to Ardmore, Oklahoma.  Ultimately it just meant that the Republicans went for the maximum gerrymander.

[Landslide Lyndon]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

[Beet]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

You want us to believe that TPM is the only one to pick up on a bald faced lie? The Leg. Fiscal Bureau's report is clearly measuring something different than the projected budget, based on spending plans. I really don't think this is the appropriate line of attack, px75.

Aiming at the draconian nature of the attack on the unions' bargaining rights might be more fruitful. Also, Smash255's comments in the other thread about how the law enforcement and firefighter unions shared in the sacrifice, just as much money could be saved.

[jimrtex]

The Texas Dems still had one yellow dog from a Republican district who fouled it up for them... I wonder if the Wisconsin caucus has anyone similar or if it's a liberal rump that survived last year's slaughter.

Ken Armbrister, who is now Rick Perry's legislative liason stayed in Austin.  The Democrats were always trying to carve up his district anyhow.

But it was John Whitmire who returned after he started reading what the judges were actually saying, and realized they were going to be staying in Santa Fe a really long time.

[Landslide Lyndon]

This is hard to believe. Walker's changes only affected hundreds of millions. It would not be enough to turn a $100 million surplus into a $2-$3 billion deficit.

There is no billion dollar deficit. Walker is just lying.

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf

You want us to believe that TPM is the only one to pick up on a bald faced lie? The Leg. Fiscal Bureau's report is clearly measuring something different than the projected budget, based on spending plans. I really don't think this is the appropriate line of attack, px75.

Aiming at the draconian nature of the attack on the unions' bargaining rights might be more fruitful. Also, Smash255's comments in the other thread about how the law enforcement and firefighter unions shared in the sacrifice, just as much money could be saved.

TPM uncovered the US attorneys scandal when everybody else was asleep. I certainly trust them more than CNN or any other "objective" news source.

Also, I'd guess that budget issues in Wisconsin are considered too wonky and boring for the horserace-obsessed traditional media.
Anyway, the numbers are there. If you don't trust them it's another story. 

[Beet]

px,

cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc).

You're citing TPM, an obviously unhinged Madison newspaper editorial, and a legislative document with no context which you are almost surely misinterpreting. Your story-- that a $1.5 billion deficit as of late 2010 was transformed into a $100 million surplus in early 2011, which was transformed back into a $2-3 billion deficit by $140 million in budget changes by the Walker administration is makes no sense on face. If the roles were reversed, all of us would be saying that it's another example of how the tea party, the birthers, etc. have driven the GOP off the rails. Let's not do the same thing.

Here's more from the Progressive blog Wisconsin Budget Project:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Beet]

See my comments in the other thread.

[Iosif]

The state troopers told to go after the dems refused and the capital police ignored the governors order to clear out the protesters, union solidarity is strong here.
As for teachers getting the "Blue Flu" i would prefer they wait until the strike is officially called.

Refusing to enforce the law eh, assuming that it is the law? If so, the next step is the national guard. The state troopers work for the state right?  I wonder how they should be dealt with, they are refusing to follow orders.

If Walker tries to call out the guard he has no future in politics no matter how heroic it seems to conservatives, Americans do not enjoy the sight of the military beating up peaceful protesters, some of us learned a thing or two from the sixties.
And if he does end up paying us like they pay teachers in Mississipi or some other anti worker state Wisconsin will get the same low quality education they get, not everyone can afford to send their kids to a fancy private school like Walker and his rich buddies who will end up getting the money they take from the teachers in another tax break.

Wonderful post.

I fully support my brothers and sisters in Wisconsin in their fight against tyranny. It's a shame they can't recall this SOB until next January...

[Landslide Lyndon]

px,

cinyc is citing Politifact (Pulitzer prize, called Michelle Bachmann "beyond preposterous", acknowledged that the stimulus created 1 million jobs, etc. etc. etc).

Cinyc cited politifact about the use of National Guard against protesters, not the budget situation.

As for the fiscal bureau document, it's what we have versus Walker's word.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply

Their job is to vote.  They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.  And the legislature can't do anything budget related while they're gone (not that I defend filibustering everything either).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

This sets a TERRIBLE precedent... if you can't win a legislative fight, just abandon your job.  Sure, it's just once now, but soon it'll turn into only for "important" bills, and then you'll see it happening for pretty much everything.

Look at what happened with the filibuster... it's become abused to the point that it's now a procedural motion that nearly every bill has to overcome.

If the bill wasn't a real problem, they would not have gone to such lengths. I think that some procedural measures like this are necessary, to guard against the majority overstepping with legislation.

This isn't procedural... this is not doing your job.  Procedure is a filibuster or other actions in the chambers.  Leaving the state is leaving your job.

It's like going on strike, regardless of which side of the Wisconsin-Illinois border they are on -- but striking is not the same abandonment of responsibility that the phrase "leaving your job" would imply

Their job is to vote.  They're failing to do that... legislator can't just "go on strike" when a bill comes up that they don't like.

Filibuster?

That's within the rules of Congress/legislatures.  Not showing up is a violation of the rules (and hence the reason the SaA can drag them back).

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

[Landslide Lyndon]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

I can't wait to see the further shell-shacking the Democratic caucus gets come 2012 because of this stunt.

Yeah, just like Republicans were punished because they filibustered everything in sight for the last two years.

This isn't a filibuster.

Semantics. The overall effect is the same.
Republicans could as well skip Washington and nothing would change since a cloture motion needs 60 votes to be adopted, not 41 to reject it.

No, because they can still get stuff done while filibustering.

Like what? Passing resolutions about how everybody loves puppies?

Like any other business.  You're implying that they accomplish nothing.  If that were the case, there would be nothing to filibuster...