Italy 2013: The official thread

[Andrea]

Results by province

http://www.primarieitaliabenecomune.it/risultati


Renzi carried Cuneo, Asti, Como, Lecco, Verona, Vicenza, Pordenone, Lucca, Pistoia, Firenze, Pisa (Livorno checked who Pisa voted for and switched to Bersani), Arezzo, Siena, Grosseto, Perugia, Pesaro, Macerata, Fermo,

Vendola carried Bari, Brindisi, Lecce

Tie in Alessandria

Everything else for Bersani

Top for candidates

Bersani: Ogliastra (73.2%) Vibo Valentia (71.8%) Messina (64.2%)
Renzi: Arezzo (62.7) Lucca (59.7) Pistoia (57.2)
Vendola: Bari (47.3) Brindisi (40.3) Lecce (38.9)
Puppato: Treviso (18.5) Belluno (11.3) Vicenza (10.2)
Tabacci:  Benevento (13.4%) Barletta Andria Trani (9%) Catanzaro (8.3%)

Bottom:

Bersani: Lucca (28.9%) Arezzo (29.9%) Bari (30.7)
Renzi: Vibo (13) Oglianstra (17) Nuoro (17)
Vendola: Arezzo (7.1) Vibo (7.4) Enna (7.6) Piacenza (7.6)
Puppato: Arezzo (3 votes) Crotone (0.3) Trapani and Foggia (0.5%)
Tabacci: Prato (0.2) Lucca, Arezzo, Firenze, Pistoia, Siena, Brindisi, Isernia (all 0.3%)

[Keystone Phil]

Glad Vendola did so poorly in one of my ancestral hometowns.

[SPQR]

Renzi is NOT a centrist.
He is a center-left candidate,who supports biological testament,ius soli,civil unions and adoption for homosexual couples...

[Keystone Phil]

Renzi is NOT a centrist.
He is a center-left candidate,who supports biological testament,ius soli,civil unions and adoption for homosexual couples...

"As centrist as he's being made out to be" didn't mean he's centrist overall. Just that there's more of an emphasis on the center part of the center-left label by those that dislike him. Unless I'm missing why he's having such difficulty with the left wingers of the party. I can see the establishment left wingers disliking him because he's reform minded but Vendola voters aren't against him for that reason...

I'm guessing they were all asked about gay adoption in that debate. I read though that it was actually Galan who came out as the first candidate to support gay adoption.

[SPQR]

Renzi is NOT a centrist.
He is a center-left candidate,who supports biological testament,ius soli,civil unions and adoption for homosexual couples...

"As centrist as he's being made out to be" didn't mean he's centrist overall. Just that there's more of an emphasis on the center part of the center-left label by those that dislike him. Unless I'm missing why he's having such difficulty with the left wingers of the party. I can see the establishment left wingers disliking him because he's reform minded but Vendola voters aren't against him for that reason...

I'm guessing they were all asked about gay adoption in that debate. I read though that it was actually Galan who came out as the first candidate to support gay adoption.

Yeah,he's made up to be way more centrist than he actually is,and that certainly damages him in the primaries.
That's also why I strongly doubt he has any chance in the second round.

Don't know about Galan,but anyway he dropped out of the primaries. He's too much of a decent politician to fit in there.

[Keystone Phil]

Oh, wow. I guess the center-right is too much of a circus to notice when someone bows out. One of my friends is a big Galan supporter and I didn't see him post anything about it. Strange.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Oh boy.  They pick the establishment hack.  *sigh*.  By the way, Antonio, just out of curiosity, why'd you change your icon to Republican? 

It has to do with another leadership election, on the French right, in order to testify my solidarity with the other poster who uses to wear this avatar. You can't imagine how painful it is for me to have a blue avatar, but it feels like a moral duty.

[Zanas]

Anyway, I don't see why suddenly the PD should be a leftist stronghold. When Veltroni and co transformed what existed into a new PD party, he emphasized on the fact that this would be a centre party, with centre and centre-left components, and that it would not group with other social-democrats in the European Parliament. By doing that, he killed what was left of the Italian left, which was once maybe the most powerful of the Occident world.

Since then, of course, the other social-democrats have also moved further to their right, and have ended forming a European Parliament group of socialists and democrats where the Italian PD has returned. But to see that now someone as Renzi would be looked down on because he's not enough of a leftist, whereas this party is not supposed to be left-wing in its own foundations, seems a bit odd to me. Of course it doesn't seem odd, I see what's going on, I'm just saying.

I think I might just endorse Renzi for the 2d round seeing what is said here.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Anyway, I don't see why suddenly the PD should be a leftist stronghold. When Veltroni and co transformed what existed into a new PD party, he emphasized on the fact that this would be a centre party, with centre and centre-left components, and that it would not group with other social-democrats in the European Parliament. By doing that, he killed what was left of the Italian left, which was once maybe the most powerful of the Occident world.

Since then, of course, the other social-democrats have also moved further to their right, and have ended forming a European Parliament group of socialists and democrats where the Italian PD has returned. But to see that now someone as Renzi would be looked down on because he's not enough of a leftist, whereas this party is not supposed to be left-wing in its own foundations, seems a bit odd to me. Of course it doesn't seem odd, I see what's going on, I'm just saying.

I think I might just endorse Renzi for the 2d round seeing what is said here.

Yeah, there's really no possible reason to endorse Bersani.

[SPQR]

I have no problem with Bersani as a person,and very few people do actually.
What I and many others don't like is those who back him,and who inevitably influence his program and the eventual cabinet.

[Leftbehind]

Renzi is NOT a centrist.
He is a center-left candidate,who supports biological testament,ius soli,civil unions and adoption for homosexual couples...

Your standard liberals support those.

[RogueBeaver]

RCM: That sounds like Renzi is more socially liberal than Bersani but more economically moderate, unless I misread your post.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The PD as a whole is, at best, Third Wayish, at worst shamelessly neoliberal. Bersani and Renzi aren't really different in that regard.

[Andrea]

Have we already mentioned that tonight (21:15) on Rai 1 there will be a Bersani-Renzi debate?

[Keystone Phil]

Have we already mentioned that tonight (21:15) on Rai 1 there will be a Bersani-Renzi debate?

I didn't know they were going to squeeze one in with only a week of campaigning. Awesome.

[SPQR]

RCM: That sounds like Renzi is more socially liberal than Bersani but more economically moderate, unless I misread your post.

Yes.

Even though one of the main problems in this sense is that Bersani's economic views are not that clear.
For example,he was the Minister who made plenty of liberalizations back in 2007,and he said he would do so again if he became PM.
So yes,he has a more leftist background overall,but apart from saying that he would modify the labour reform and the famous Article 18,not much else is clear.

At least Renzi has clearly stated that he would support public dismissals in order to reduce the debt.


Antonio V,how exactly is PD "shamelessly neoliberal"?!?

[RogueBeaver]

Now Renzi apparently wants to change the rules- allow people who didn't vote in the first round to vote in the runoff. LOL.

[Keystone Phil]

Wait, what? I asked a PD activist friend of mine if turnout will be higher in the second round. He said it would be. How the hell can that happen if only first round voters can vote? Unless something was lost in translation...

Anyway, what kind of ridiculous requirement is that? Renzi is sort of silly for wanting to change the rules during the game but that rule seems asinine to begin with.

[SPQR]

The official rules are : people can vote but only if they have a valid justification for not voting last Sunday,ie they need to bring a plane ticket.

...

[Keystone Phil]

...

Do you think that's reasonable?

[SPQR]

Not really,but on the other side primaries are an extremely new concept for Italian politics.
The first ones were in 2005 and were more of a plebiscite for Prodi;afterwards we had a few,but they were never really close at a national level,so I understand that the rules still need some work.
After all,in the US you've been doing them for decades and there is still so much talk about caucuses,open/closed primaries and so on.

So yeah,the "justification" part is silly,but on the other hand I wouldn't want Renzi to win thanks to hundreds of thousands of people who didn't vote in the first round but suddenly became interested in the runoff.

[Insula Dei]

Yeah, these sort of regulations are always idiotic, but nothing beats Argentina, where you can't vote in the General Election if you didn't also vote in the (pretty meaningless) primaries.

[Keystone Phil]

I've been told the whole "pay for participate" thing is to keep center-right voters from voting in the center-left primary. Is there not party registration for the public or is that typically reserved for the politicos? If the former, why not just conduct it like our "closed primary" system but specify which parties can participate (since it isn't just PD)?

[RogueBeaver]

Isn't the registration fee only 2 Euros?

[Kitteh]

Isn't the registration fee only 2 Euros?

It was €1 in the PS primaries last year.