Turkey's new school year: Evolution out, jihadism in for elementary school kids

[DC Al Fine]

wonderful to see children in Turkey are spending less time learning about that trashbag Kemal Ataturk.

So you believe children should be taught to memorize prayers in American public schools?

Turkey is an overwhelmingly Muslim country. As long as non-Muslims can opt out of having to learn the Quran and associated Muslim things, I don't see a problem.

So you'd be fine with teaching Jihad to children just because "muh majority"? And oppressing scientific facts like evolution is ok too? Come on, Erdogan is absolutely atrocious, don't try to defend him just because you have something against Ataturk.

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

[DC Al Fine]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

See, this is where progressives lose me. Proponents of this argument usually assume that it is self-evident that evolution is so important and rarely explain why parental opposition to it must be ignored.

[DC Al Fine]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

It's not THAT important for a regular human to know. Neither is Jupiter, Calculus or the fact that Earth is shaped like a sphere, but we should still teach our children these things no matter what the parents believe.

You're two bolded statements contradict themselves. Do parents have the primary authority over their children's education or does the state?

If it's THAT important to the parents, I have no problem with them taking their kids out of public school and educating them the way they see fit.  I just think public schools should teach science, even the parts that disagree with the predominant (or otherwise) religion.

And poor parents are just SOL? This isn't American healthcare, most of the world is running a "single payer model for K-12 education. Choice in education is the prerogative of the rich and a small minority of extremely dedicated people.

[DC Al Fine]

Frankly, parents ought to have the right to determine what their children learn unless there is a major overriding reason for the state to interfere. Otherwise we get this creepy Orwellian vibe of the state 'owning' children. Frankly, evolution isn't anywhere near important enough to intervene. If the bulk of parents don't want their children learning it the state should respect their wishes.

While I generally agree with the first part, I don't think I can agree on the second.  Sure, for sh**tty authoritarian hell holes like Turkey in 2017 it probably don't matter too much if they learn proper science or not, but what about Alabama in the 70s?....probably now too sadly.

See, this is where progressives lose me. Proponents of this argument usually assume that it is self-evident that evolution is so important and rarely explain why parental opposition to it must be ignored.

A lot of modern medicine, and understanding of climate change is dependent upon evolution. Also it's incredibly unfair to discriminate against children for having ignorant parents.

You ignore the value of cognitive dissonance. I personally know at least three physicians that are six day creationists. Creationism is by no means a handicap to life.

Your latter point is exactly the kind of malarkey I'm talking about. This sort of reasoning could be applied to all sorts of authoritarian stuff. Your great great grandparents were probably hopelessly ignorant of eugenics. I don't think they would have done their kids a disservice if they didn't want it taught to them in state schools.

[DC Al Fine]

There has to be a line drawn somewhere. Can somebody take their children out of history classes because they are devoted Anti-Semites who don't believe in the Holocaust?

Certainly not. In my original argument, I said that parents should have control over how their children are educated unless there is a very important reason to override their wishes. Examples of a "very important reason" include: the child has to learn it to be a reasonably well functioning member of society, or what the parents are teaching is likely to lead to violence. Holocaust denial is a good example of the latter reason.

In the case of evolution, it's often assumed that children need to learn about evolution regardless of the parent's wishes. I just don't see the need for it. Creationists are functional members of society, nor are they violent like neonazis. The whole "children must be made to learn evolution despite their parents wishes" trope strikes me as primarily virtue signaling and cultural imperialism rather concern for a child's welfare.

Your latter point is exactly the kind of malarkey I'm talking about. This sort of reasoning could be applied to all sorts of authoritarian stuff. Your great great grandparents were probably hopelessly ignorant of eugenics. I don't think they would have done their kids a disservice if they didn't want it taught to them in state schools.

I agree that not believing evolution is hardly a handicap in real life, but is eugenics really a fair comparison to evolution? 

snip

I'll fully concede to being biased here - I love science and shudder at the thought of such an exciting subject being off-limits to people, but I do think there is nothing wrong with teaching what is an extremely well-supported theory accepted by the vast majority of biologists and banning it from the classroom seems unreasonable. 

I think you're missing my point. This is about the authority of the state to overrule the wishes of parents in education, not whether eugenics or evolution are true.