A New Exodus? Americans are Exiting Liberal Churches

[opebo]

Children of Catholics and Lutherans in this day and age generally don't go to church, whereas children of more conservative church goers are more likely to keep going to church.

that is probably because conservative churches actually preach that there is a salvational need to seeking Christ.  If a church preaches that Christ isn't the only way to be saved, then why on earth would anyone go through the suffering of following Jesus?

What suffering?  I'll admit going to church is a miserable thing to do, but I think they like it - social and whatnot.

The only suffering I notice is on my part as I am denied things you christians who control the State have banned.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What suffering?

battling my flesh:

Matthew 10:38
“Anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

Mark 8:34
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

[MaC]

What suffering?

battling my flesh:

Matthew 10:38
“Anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

Mark 8:34
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.”

Luke 9:23
Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me.”

dude, you do know what quote comes next in the sequence, right?

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

What suffering?

battling my flesh:

Matthew 10:38
Matthew 16:24
Mark 8:34
Luke 9:23

dude, you do know what quote comes next in the sequence, right?

The Gospel of John is next, but I didn't feel like doing a search.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

No, that's not it.

Only dumbs care, jmfcst.

There it is!

[opebo]

What suffering?

battling my flesh:

Haha.. 'battling my flesh' - that's a good one.  I like the euphemism 'spanking the monkey'.

But anyway, I think you overstate the difficulty of 'denying the flesh' - for most christians it is easy because they are hormonally deficient, impotent, morbidly obese, or some combination of the three.  

Just out of curiousity, it seems that you seek pain.  Does this carry over into 'cutting' or other forms of self-torture?  Does the pain have to be self-inflicted to please you, or do you like when others do it?  The wife, the boss, etc?  Don't worry, I'm very tolerant of your fetish, jmfcst, though I don't share your predelictions.  The only thing to which I object is your meaningless claim that your masochism is 'better' than my hedonism.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

No, that's not it.

Only dumbs care, jmfcst.

There it is!

no, I was responding to a direct question:

What suffering? 

The point being that only an idiot would follow Christ if they believed there was an alternative path to salvation.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The point being that only an idiot would follow Christ if they believed there was an alternative path to salvation.

Then I must be an idiot.

[opebo]

no, I was responding to a direct question:

What suffering? 

The point being that only an idiot would follow Christ if they believed there was an alternative path to salvation.

It is very strange.. you seek out 'salvation', which is a fictional pleasure, by eschewing the more 'real' or at least apparent pleasures of the present.  Do you not see that this has no basis in observation?  Is it not likely that it is in fact a set of excuses for indulging in masochism or related tendencies?

Actually that guy Mel Gibson has done a lot to help us understand the christian.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

The point being that only an idiot would follow Christ if they believed there was an alternative path to salvation.

Then I must be an idiot.

and, in addition, you've made Jesus out to be a liar: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  (John 14:6)...a fact supported throughout the New Testament.

furthermore, you are also illogical, for reason states that if there are alternative paths to salvation, then there was absolutely no reason for Jesus to die. 

Also, Jesus himself searched in prayer two separate times for an alternative path while he was praying in the Garden shortly before his arrest and execution, and Jesus found no other way.  So, it is total idiocy for a follower of Jesus to claim the existence of a another path when Jesus himself couldn't find it.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I will never, ever go to an evangelical Christian church and would much sooner become a Catholic/Lutheran.

You don't see Catholic priests out living the high life with their nice cars and lavish houses and private jets with "challs" (church malls) where there are offices and coffee shops and various other things inside and the sanctuary, the very house of God, is simply thrown in as an afterthought where everybody sits, by the thousands, nameless, and watches a pastor preach his hate and goo with his kitschy southern accent and his books and pens and pins and videos and self help programs for sale... YUCK.

I see Evangelical "bible based" Christianity as a bigoted form of Christianity that preaches materialism in the name of God and simply picks and chooses Bible passages to "follow" or "not follow".  Of course there are evangelicals that are very dedicated but I believe they are a dying breed.

The future of Christianity lies in strip malls where pastors tell their congregations to go out and try to strike it rich and to hate everyone different than themselves and to abuse the environment because hell... the end is coming at any moment and who gives a damn about our children anyways.. and that you should follow follow follow.... and of course, vote Republican.

Sounds really hateful.  Please, someone convince me otherwise.. that maybe Christians can live good lives by example and not pass judgment or bring their personal beliefs to the voting booth and use the Bible as an excuse to hate others because they are different.  It just saddens me.  What a bastardization of Christianity:  Yee-haw cowboy you dun gon' burn in hell Christianity....

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

  It just saddens me.  What a bastardization of Christianity

Your logic should sadden you, not only because deny the teachings of your own faith, but you automatically pull out the label of “hater” for anyone who disagrees with you.

Do you believe Jesus was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in John 14:6 , “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me”?

Do you believe Jesus was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in  John 3:18 – “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son”?

Do you believe Jesus was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in John 3:36 , “Whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him”?

Do you believe Peter was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in Acts 4:12, “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved"?

Do you believe Paul was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in 2Thes 2:12, “All will be condemned who have not believed the truth”?

Do you believe John was practicing hatred when he unequivocally stated in  1John 2:23, “No one who denies the Son has the Father”?

[Ban my account ffs!]

I haven't pulled out the label "hater" for everyone who disagrees with me.  I just can't stand the politicization and materialization of the Christian faith by these so-called "Christians" that spend more of their time worrying about what everyone else is doing and don't really give a damn about their own life and the example that they are setting for others.

No, I don't think anyone was preaching hatred when they said the only way into heaven was through Jesus.  That is a clear tenant of the Christian faith.

What I think breeds hatred are all these people who claim that gays should be allowed to be discriminated against because the personal prejudices of a few historical people/cultures wrote it down in the Bible.

I really don't like the "us vs. them" culture surrounding evangelical churches.. and their willingness to just up and leave a church the minute the pastor says something they don't like and their reactionary way of looking at everything and their contempt for the poor is probably the most unchristian thing you can have. 

Or how they always seem to think that God is providing everything for them and that he will save them and that he chooses where hurricanes go based on "sinnage" of different regions.  No, this is just a bunch of rich slobs trying to capitalize on the weak-mindedness of others.

God provided you with life, an earth to live on, all the free prayer you can handle, and a path to salvation through his son.  He didn't provide that meal on the table.  Whoever worked to earn the money to buy it did.  He didn't steer the hurricane away from Florida, prevailing winds and the jetstream did.

He didn't tell you to just rely on him for all your needs.  That is why Jesus was so adament about helping the poor and fostering a sense of community... so you could help each other out... because God can't just conjur up a windstorm of mana every time you're down on your luck.

So, yes.. I understand the tenants of the Evangelical Christian faith, because I was a member of such a church for a few years.  I didn't get sick of the pastor or the faith, I got sick of all the uber-judgmental people that come into the church with their pre-conceived prejudices in search of a Bible verse that will back it up that were constantly judging you and talking about you behind your back and automatically placing a step below t hem because you didn't read the King James Version of the Bible and went to a public school (gasp!!!)...

And it's the people that make a church.  So I think I'll settle for the nice old ladies that go to the Lutheran church and work every Thursday night to provide food to the poor in the community.. it's more than slimy Pat Robertson ever did.

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

I just can't stand the politicization and materialization of the Christian faith by these so-called "Christians" that spend more of their time worrying about what everyone else is doing and don't really give a damn about their own life and the example that they are setting for others.

Well, take it from me.  I do not wish to legislate morality or attempt to outlaw any acts that don’t do harm to others.  BUT, if you force me to choose whether or not to place my stamp of approval on something, then you have to meet my standards, otherwise, don’t ask for my approval.  Deal?

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No, I don't think anyone was preaching hatred when they said the only way into heaven was through Jesus.  That is a clear tenant of the Christian faith.

Agreed.

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What I think breeds hatred are all these people who claim that gays should be allowed to be discriminated against because the personal prejudices of a few historical people/cultures wrote it down in the Bible.

1)  Some of us believe that the Bible is NOT the opinion of the culture of that day, rather it is the word of God judging the culture of that day and replacing it with the kind of culture approved by God.

2)  Again, I am not attempting to discriminate against anyone.  BUT, if you force me to choose whether or not to place my stamp of approval on something, then you have to meet my standards, otherwise, don’t ask for my approval.  I have no problem with gays marrying, it is totally none of my business, just don’t make me a party to it because I want NOTHING to do with it.

I really don't like the "us vs. them" culture surrounding evangelical churches.. and their willingness to just up and leave a church the minute the pastor says something they don't like  and their reactionary way of looking at everything

Pastors should preach the Word.  If someone leaves because they disagree with something taught in the bible, then so be it, let them leave.

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and their contempt for the poor is probably the most unchristian thing you can have. 

Check the facts:  Conservative evangelicals give far more to charity than any other group.

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Or how they always seem to think that God is providing everything for them and that he will save them and that he chooses where hurricanes go based on "sinnage" of different regions.  No, this is just a bunch of rich slobs trying to capitalize on the weak-mindedness of others.

God provided you with life, an earth to live on, all the free prayer you can handle, and a path to salvation through his son.  He didn't provide that meal on the table.  Whoever worked to earn the money to buy it did.  He didn't steer the hurricane away from Florida, prevailing winds and the jetstream did.

He didn't tell you to just rely on him for all your needs.  That is why Jesus was so adament about helping the poor and fostering a sense of community... so you could help each other out... because God can't just conjur up a windstorm of mana every time you're down on your luck.
 

Agreed.  That’s probably why I go to church that has a pastor who spends a good portion of his sermons preaching against the version of fell-good Christianity spread by most TV evangelicals.

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So, yes.. I understand the tenants of the Evangelical Christian faith, because I was a member of such a church for a few years.  I didn't get sick of the pastor or the faith, I got sick of all the uber-judgmental people that come into the church with their pre-conceived prejudices in search of a Bible verse that will back it up that were constantly judging you and talking about you behind your back and automatically placing a step below t hem because you didn't read the King James Version of the Bible and went to a public school (gasp!!!)...

So, you picked a misguided church to attend and are now using your experience to justify your labeling of all of Evangelical Christianity as misguided, even though the vast majority of Evangelical churches are independent of each other and share only the commonality of understanding of the need to spread the Gospel to the lost.

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And it's the people that make a church.  So I think I'll settle for the nice old ladies that go to the Lutheran church and work every Thursday night to provide food to the poor in the community

Well, if you like rubbing elbows in churches made of people who give to the poor, may I ask you what percentage of your time and income goes to support the poor?

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.. it's more than slimy Pat Robertson ever did.

I have never been a defender of Pat Robertson, but may I ask how is it that YOU have knowledge of how much Pat Robertson gifts to the poor?

[MaC]

No, that's not it.

Only dumbs care, jmfcst.

There it is!

thank you Red (jmfcst, you should know that by now)-not calling you dumb, but in your discussions with opebo you've had, you should know by experience

[Swing low, sweet chariot. Comin' for to carry me home.]

No, that's not it.

Only dumbs care, jmfcst.

There it is!

thank you Red (jmfcst, you should know that by now)-not calling you dumb, but in your discussions with opebo you've had, you should know by experience

of course I knew what he was talking about, I just wanted him to quote opedo while I was responding to a question from opedo