Which of these "covid view camps" do you fall into?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Somewhere between Camp 3 and Camp 4.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The results of this poll are honestly concerning. For a while I actually felt like this forum was too hawkish on COVID, but now it seems like the backlash in the other direction is getting out of control.

What is the ideal position in your view? Camp 3?

I already posted:

Somewhere between Camp 3 and Camp 4.

Not that I think these camps accurately reflect the range of possible policies around COVID, but camp 5 definitely seems massively irresponsible (and camps 1 and 2 massively overreacting).

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

[Antonio the Sixth]

Targeting restrictions on the unvaccinated can work in some areas (and indeed groups 3 and 4 talk about that), but not in others. Like, if you're gonna put a mask mandate but only on the unvaccinated, how do you end up enforcing that? Are you going to ask their vaccine card to any person who goes out without a mask? That would get silly very fast.

I think mask mandates in certain high-density and/or enclosed areas are fine, honestly. I don't see the big deal with them, as long as you don't try to restrict it to only the most hyper-effective mask types. Wearing cloth masks in packed areas should just be normalized, and it wouldn't be a meaningful impediment on social life.

In other words, permanent mask mandates. This is precisely what I've been fearing. So many people are starting to accept masks as part of the "new normal" and are no longer willing to part with them. Why must they be so? Masks did not become permanent after the Spanish Flu and largely vanished for almost a century before making a return with this pandemic.

I mean, I don't know if they'll be permanent. If COVID keeps mutating until it truly doesn't pose a systemic threat to our healthcare system (which is not the case right now, despite all the wishful thinking around it) then we can stop wearing masks.

But it's incredibly weird to me that the first thought here isn't "when will we stop having overwhelmed ICUs and hundreds of deaths every day?" but "when will we stop having to wear masks?". Like, is that really the bigger deal here?

For me, the efficacy of mask mandates is truly questionable at this point, given that they've done nothing to stem the rise in cases and hospitalizations we've seen. They are punitive, in the sense of being applied to fully vaccinated people, they sow doubts about the efficacy of the vaccine, and they generate damaging psychological effects, particularly for schoolchildren. And given that we have a greater variety of coronavirus treatments and therapies, with more on the way, why should we continue to impose restrictions that are of little value?

I mean. Are they even being enforced currently? Because it's a bit hard to judge what's been effective and what hasn't when much of the country has had no restrictions at all.

But if it turns out they're not effective, okay, that's fair enough, but the rest strikes me as rationalization honestly.

Also like... sure, I'm against mask mandates for young children too, but how are masks psychologically damaging for adults?

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

[Antonio the Sixth]

It's true that many mask mandates aren't being enforced, but even in jurisdictions where they are, or where people are religiously adhering to mask-wearing of their own accord, that hasn't stopped the virus from continuing to rage. This is even more so, because the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks, and not the N95s that have recently been promoted by public health officials.

I'm sorry, but this is far too vague and anecdotal to be a serious argument. My understanding based on actual studies is that N95 masks are very effective, and cloth masks far less effective but still quite helpful (and have the advantage of not seriously impeding breathing, which, yes, is a serious issue and needs to be avoided). If you have statistics to the contrary I'm happy to look at them, but this ain't it.

As for the effects of masking on adults, I would say that they, along with the other pandemic restrictions, contribute to greater social isolation and alienation between individuals. I'll admit that the effect is greater on children, and it is children who we should be most concerned about. Since we say that mask mandates for children shouldn't be imposed, why should they be for adults?

Because adults are capable to endure mild discomfort for the common interests? That's basically the defining feature of adulthood.

Anyway I'm sorry, but I just don't see the psychological impact and social alienation of wearing a cloth mask. I get that facial expressions help communication, but frankly if you're at the point of weighing that against the health impact of COVID I think the comparison is absurd.

You misinterpreted what I said. I'm not questioning the efficacy of N95 masks. I'm pointing out that the majority of people are continuing to wear cloth and surgical masks. Obviously, that could change over the next few months. Moreover, you yourself admit the impact that masking can have on facial expressions. And it's true that adults have responsibilities and privileges that children don't, but these mask mandates are on balance a net negative for society.

I don't think it would be wise for me to continue talking about this, as we're both entrenched in our views on the matter. It just saddens me that so many people have so fully embraced masks as a "magic tool" to save us from the pandemic, when all they've done is to break down societal ties and to make life more difficult and more depressing than it was already.

This kind of hyperbolic rhetoric is exactly what I meant when I said the drift in this forum's COVID mindset was concerning. Something as innocuous and harmless as a cloth mask, with a small but measurably positive effect on public health, is now apparently "breaking down social ties" and such a terrible imposition on even grown ass adults. The selective fragility is remarkable.

And of course I note that you can't make your argument sound reasonable without strawmanning the other side, which is pretty indicative.

You're accusing me of a logical fallacy? I've said before that I've been subjected to such accusations in the past. But never mind. I could provide statistics, articles, about this entire situation. Even if I did so, you would dismiss them. That's why I've come to the viewpoint that most people, once they've established their viewpoints about something, cannot be swayed, and they are going to double down on them.

I'm not interested in arguing with you any further over this, so I'm not going to say anything more about this.

Highlighted for your convenience.

But yeah, I certainly agree this discussion was pointless. Have fun I guess.

[Antonio the Sixth]

I don't see how the comparison is absurd at all. The ability that we have to recognize other people is powerful beyond belief. It's what lets us see faces on Mars. Recognizing and knowing other humans is fundamental to what makes us human. When we interact with others, non-verbal communication is just as important as verbal communication, and most of that nonverbal communication is in the face. Cutting off most of the face destroys that.

When I have advanced this argument elsewhere in the past, I've been met with the response that people can understand the emotions and feelings of people they know just fine even with a mask. Even if we suppose that to be the case, what about people they don't know? There is a reason that "faceless stranger" is practically a set phrase in English; without their faces, strangers hardly seem human. When you go into a crowd in a public place where everyone is wearing a mask, you find that you are not met with a single face. It is a perfectly faceless crowd.

At this time, our society is more atomized than it has been at any time in human history, and we find ourselves paying the price over and over. With social trust lower than ever, I find it inconceivable that forcing everyone to put up a fence between themselves and the world passes without a second thought.

I get that, and I don't think I've been trying to minimize the social element of seeing people's faces. Obviously a society where we never did so would be a pretty disturbing one. I just don't think doing that for a few years, in specific settings with large gatherings in enclosed spaces, has been that socially harmful. Maybe my perspective is biased here because I've never been one for big crowd events in the first place, and I'll try to keep that in mind in future discussions. But at the same time, I do think that the harm of not doing so is pretty hard to dispute, and if another year or two of masking in specific high-risk settings can get us to a place of being able to live with the virus without significant strain, that seems worth it to me.

I would ask you: what do you think of niqabs? I don't mean whether you think that wearing a niqab should be illegal; I just want to know how you feel about the practice of wearing that article of clothing. Personally I find it repulsive and abhorrent, because its purpose is to erect a barrier between its wearer and the world. It is, quite literally, a cloth mask. Why wouldn't cloth masks have that effect except that we don't want them to?

I mean, it's definitely not the kind of cultural practice I'd want to encourage, no. Of course it goes a bit further than a cloth mask in terms what it covers, and I'd argue that the most abhorrent aspect of it is the gendered element. I don't think you really needed this comparison to make your point.